AAS Bodybuilders with Lumps Under Nipple/s and treatment / experience.

[moobius]

i'd say it was probably the deca that did it... long ester takes 3 wks or so to get up to full saturation in the blood and you upped the dose on that 3rd week... (why pyramid in with a long ester -- makes NO sense)

.5-.75/day arimidex should have been plenty for the amount of test you were doing unless you are just hyper sensative. sust has got some long esters in it as well, so blood levels were far from peaking when you pumped the dose up (why you bumped the dose on the sust to 750 at wk 3 again doesn't make sense) no reason you can't go over 1mg/day arimidex. as for letro, should have just hit it hard with a 2.5mg dose and tapered off from there as sides diminished. keep in mind the AI works differently than SERMS and so taking Nolva at the same time was wise as nolva will block E at the receptors as it binds more stongly... Nolva also helps diminish the sides of prolactin induced gyne but is not nearly as effective as bromo/etc.

careful with the letro b/c it is powerful stuff and can crash your estrogen levels (which is a bad thing). too little estrogen is almost as bad as too much

aromasin used as PCT works wonders... use it for 2wks and taper off and you probably won't see any type of E rebound.


as for your next cycle, i'd recommend keeping doses low especially after your problems this go around... and i'd avoid the dbol even with anti-E's (at least on the next one) learn how your body reacts to one or two substances at a time. no need to rush things, and if you ARE extra sensative to test-> est conversion, dbol doesn't convert to estrogen, it converts to l7alpha methylestradiol, a more biologically active form of estrogen than regular estradiol.... so its much harder to fight when you're getting gyne symptoms.


not sure where some of you guys are getting your "advice" for cycles, but there's a lot of bad info out there (as is apparent by some of the responses in this thread)

[lee_fitness]

 I'm glad that this post has turned out to help a few others. 

X3 on the Deca only. Big No No ! Clandestine has that covered!

Its turned out to be a good post on helping, as a few others have Joined in.

Its going well for me week4 tommorrow of Letro 2.5. I ve been tired and my muscles get really sore after every workout now. My Test Levels, Meaning' Alpha Male feeling is still there. I tend to get alot more tired a lot sooner in the day. Gym workouts arnt as full as i fatigue alot sooner.

Tendons tighter but no pain.

A for the Lump its settled as a very smooth very light raise under the Nipple. I'm going to see how the next week or so goes with it to make sure activity has gone. This may be the remains of what is going to stay from the small peanut sized Lump. We'll see how it goes and monitor my fatigue levels, any side effect etc. I have blood tests lined up for a full estrogen count and some other blood works. There on the Blood test referral slip. Haven't got them to hand to say what hey are. LFT (Liver functioning test) is amongst this for obvious reasons aswel.

If anyone has any experience with and left over "raised like" gland tissue or managed to rid it completely please feel free to share as this will help a great deal on how long Letro may contine. I'm guessing another week or 2 is when it will go further if at all. But like i say its only a slight smooth raise. Maybe it will go Hoeing so anyway. it has gone but this slight raise seems to come through every other day or so. So by this action of thegland and coming and going(fluctuating + depleting) I'm gathering it will Rid completely by "diffusing" it at the gland / tissue.
Keep the Thread going Guys. Hopefull this will help others and eachother. 

Lee 

[lee_fitness]

i'd say it was probably the deca that did it... long ester takes 3 wks or so to get up to full saturation in the blood and you upped the dose on that 3rd week... (why pyramid in with a long ester -- makes NO sense)

.5-.75/day arimidex should have been plenty for the amount of test you were doing unless you are just hyper sensative. sust has got some long esters in it as well, so blood levels were far from peaking when you pumped the dose up (why you bumped the dose on the sust to 750 at wk 3 again doesn't make sense) no reason you can't go over 1mg/day arimidex. as for letro, should have just hit it hard with a 2.5mg dose and tapered off from there as sides diminished. keep in mind the AI works differently than SERMS and so taking Nolva at the same time was wise as nolva will block E at the receptors as it binds more stongly... Nolva also helps diminish the sides of prolactin induced gyne but is not nearly as effective as bromo/etc.

careful with the letro b/c it is powerful stuff and can crash your estrogen levels (which is a bad thing). too little estrogen is almost as bad as too much

aromasin used as PCT works wonders... use it for 2wks and taper off and you probably won't see any type of E rebound.


as for your next cycle, i'd recommend keeping doses low especially after your problems this go around... and i'd avoid the dbol even with anti-E's (at least on the next one) learn how your body reacts to one or two substances at a time. no need to rush things, and if you ARE extra sensative to test-> est conversion, dbol doesn't convert to estrogen, it converts to l7alpha methylestradiol, a more biologically active form of estrogen than regular estradiol.... so its much harder to fight when you're getting gyne symptoms.


not sure where some of you guys are getting your "advice" for cycles, but there's a lot of bad info out there (as is apparent by some of the responses in this thread)

Great Post bro! Sorry read it after posting this one didnt realise there was a second page. Ha'

Ive been researching more and now that ive read your post i think Dbol will be a No for next cycle.
That solves that problem. Just test enenth for next cycle. with an AI.

Your points on me and why upping the sust was i was looking to peak a week or 2 after 4 th week then comtinue with test enanth. This was plainly because i wanted to do 3 sust per week due to the propionate (shorter esters in the sust) but i didnt have enough to start at 3 shots per week until week 3and4 then like i say i was going to continue enanth. I wont be using Sus again as its very difficult and you cant get steady  levels as its always up and down and climing.

Its a stupid drug in my eyes ha' i know it was meant Medically for patients looking for less jabs and longer steady realise of esters. BB's, its made out to be a super Test but, Plain and simple Test is test keep it at a steady level. Enanth is perfect! imo.

Oh and the reason on the Deca was because it saved jabs so had it over the week with sust. No other reason even though yes i do know its a much longer ester so its best taken at once or a couple say 2wice a week split up, if a higher dose.

On the Letro as soon as i did the taper up after 4 days i knew it was wrong,. I should have folowed my gut instinct and not just gone with a proocal i found last yr tapering up and down. I QUESTIONED, WHY TAPER UP AS IT MADE NO SENSE! Only down. Hit the 2.5mg at once, but i just thought, maybe that tapering up was to avoid too much too soon.

Thanks for the post! It helps when sombody else sees it your way aswel and just an idiot BB (so they say anyway) who thinks they know it all becasue theve read stuff and take heaps of gear and tend not to care about side effects, etc.

Lee 

Ps. No pun in tended to BB's(Bodybuilders). Lol Just talking about you regular Mr Know it all, But really dosent!

 

[lee_fitness]

Where did you find the letro protocol?

Attach added!

+ Link

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=236880

[lee_fitness]

Quick question to anyone who can input

As i mentioned before in the thread, I have a slight unpainful smooth raise under the nip, movable almost to an extent This is also just above my nipple on the chest area, almost like a smooth "disk" like texture.
Like mentioned before this is the result after 3 weeks of Letro from a hard more prominent Lump/s, (Ball bearing/s size).

Is this Breast tissue?
Fat?
Is it Likely or possible go?
Like i said I'm on my 4th week now of Letro Protocol, 2.5mg/pd. I'll be seeing how the next 2 weeks go. 8 weeks will be a Max Limit on Letro tapering down over the last 2 weeks to avoid any E Rebound.

Any one have any Comments on How Long max for Letro?
 
Like i said I'll be keeping a close eye on further progress over the next 2 weeks to evaluate if Letro is continuing to work on depleting the tissue size and if side effects are more present and needs to be ceased.

Thanks Lee

Please state if EXPERIENCE is available / offered

Lee

[moobius]

funny that you posted that link as i would have guessed steroid.com as the source... that site is like the laughing stock of all the other body building boards. there's so many posers there who know jack shit dishing misinformation like it's the new secret to huge muscles. do yourself a favor and cross check anything you read there with a more reputable source

Where did you find the letro protocol?

Attach added!

+ Link

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=236880

[lee_fitness]

funny that you posted that link as i would have guessed steroid.com as the source... that site is like the laughing stock of all the other body building boards. there's so many posers there who know jack shit dishing misinformation like it's the new secret to huge muscles. do yourself a favor and cross check anything you read there with a more reputable source

Where did you find the letro protocol?

Attach added!

+ Link
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=236880

Regards
Lee

This is the only info from that site which i have found to be of any use, othr tha tht i have found it to be a very Poor site to say the Least. I stick with another site, but only with certain members.
When i first saw the Letro Protocal on Gyno last yr, i thought nothing off it with the tapering up, but when it came around for me to use the Letro Protocal this yr i questiond it, as  it made no sense in my mind to taper up, at worst tapering up would have just pursponed a max effect for that initial 5 days, in my case i did a 4 days tapering up, tablet into quaters.

I had to make a choice there and then and seeing as nobody could give me any assuring reason not to i just started at the 4 day taper just incase any ill effects from an instant 2.5mg Dose. I was very resiliant to do this but i felt i needed to take action ASAP with the Letro as furher research wasnt giving me a certain answer on not too.

I now know that it was a chioce id rather have made the other decision on. With switching Adex + Tamox to Letro i initially had suspision that i felt a rebound happend due to the Letro being a too Low initail Dose, but was unsure why this was and ive had to learn the hard way through experience due to my previous reasoning, stated above in the last paragrah.

[baggy t]

I am new to this forum and getting my bearings. i have  which was caused by steroid abuse and i completely understand if people find this annoying as some have had to live with the condition for many years, so my apologies to those people. my condition manifested itself after years of heavy cycles without problem. It was only when i began using oxybolone which as a very strong androgenic obviously aromatizes.Although i took precautionary measures in the form of tamoxifen i must not have been taking sufficient dosage. it began as an itching burning sensation at which point i immediately increased the tamoxifen dosage but the process was already irreversible. now in am left with excess tissue under my nipples which are often sore and tender.My knowledge of steroids and effects is fairly extensive as there is not much i haven't tried. my priorities as far as my bodybuilding goals are concerned have changed and having packed on some sufficient size i will only be taking non aromatising anabolic substances from now on such as winstrol and primobolan.However i am going to persue the route of surgery as i refuse to be so mentally emotionally and socially oppressed by this condition. please feel free to reply.

[lee_fitness]

I am new to this forum and getting my bearings. i have  which was caused by steroid abuse and i completely understand if people find this annoying as some have had to live with the condition for many years, so my apologies to those people. my condition manifested itself after years of heavy cycles without problem. It was only when i began using oxybolone which as a very strong androgenic obviously aromatizes.Although i took precautionary measures in the form of tamoxifen i must not have been taking sufficient dosage. it began as an itching burning sensation at which point i immediately increased the tamoxifen dosage but the process was already irreversible. now in am left with excess tissue under my nipples which are often sore and tender.My knowledge of steroids and effects is fairly extensive as there is not much i haven't tried. my priorities as far as my bodybuilding goals are concerned have changed and having packed on some sufficient size i will only be taking non aromatising anabolic substances from now on such as winstrol and primobolan.However i am going to persue the route of surgery as i refuse to be so mentally emotionally and socially oppressed by this condition. please feel free to reply.

Welcom Baggy T,

Unlike your self i seem to be very sensitive to Androgenic Steroids and Possibly Progesterone. Especially if i dont have high precursionary measures in place or as my last cycle doses over 500mg Test, this case sust with Adex .50-.75mgpd.

Its a shame to hear about tour Gyne and i sincerely hope that surgery goes 100%. Im certain if it was myself i would go surgery without any doubt. Ive had similar Surgery on a Subacious Cist on the back of my neck. I know its not Gye but the surgery from what ive seen and read on Gyne is the same proceedure minus the nipple. ha' You can find Video clips in the Forum on Gyne surgery and it is very well laid out and self explanitory. As surgery is a definate path for yourself im sure you may have alread researched in to this, if not, check out some of the Surgery clips on here, as they are very helpful, and in my eyes help out alot at putting your mind at rest with the option of surgery.

In my case it wasnt as prominante and developed as yours, but this is not supprising as my test doses have been low scale. This i am greateful for (without sounding thoughtless), but still it is a very worrying thought if it dosent clear up for future Cycles. My future cyvles will be Either Test only 500mg max with Adex 1mg p/d or similar protection. Any addition will be a non aromatising product such as Primobolon, Other similar medication, other derivatives i will have to be careful on due such things as DHT conversion.

I hope all goes well and for you Baggy T and i look forward to seeing you in the near future on the forum post as a member who is giving advice and reassurance on Surgery gone well and last but not least, your user name being changed to Tight T and Loving it! Lol

For people looking at Letro as a defense line/treatment paragraph below follows from previous posts:
I am treating with Letro and seemsd to be going well. Ive mentioned side in previous post but now on week 4.5 i have no lathargy, endogenous Test (Natural testosterone levels) seems to be in line and muscle aches seemed to have settled. I have noticed one other side effect, this to be Ulcers in mouth at front of lip, no big deal this is painless and they do settle.

Lee

[Clandestine]

Sorry to hear about your problems too Baggy T.

To clarify, and make sure this post is still a good source of information, The androgenicity of a steroid does not corelate in any way with wether or not it aromatises to oestrogen. Aromatisation depends on the steroid structure being compatible with the aromatase enzyme.

Oxybolone (Anadrol) doesn't aromatise. It's structurally impossible for it to aromatise as it's a DHT derivative, and is already 5-alpha-reduced. It does however cause massive water bloat. This is thought to be due to it's effect on oestrogen receptors. It's been shown to up regulate them.

Oxybolone in itself is quite androgenic, but a change it undergoes in the body (which removes the 2-hydroxymethylene group from the steroid) can transform the compound into 17a-methyl-DHT, accounting for Oxy's over all highly androgenic nature.

[lee_fitness]

Great Information again thanks Clandestine!!

Thought id pay a visit to see how the board is going. I treated Gyne sides with my 2 week taper plan splitting the Letro tab into 1/8's and finishing on 2 weeks of Aromasin 25mg to avoid rebound.

Total time on:
6 weeks at 2.5mg
2 weeks at taper dose decreasing in 1/8's

I now wish i had Tapered Letro at the 3 weeks or even a possible 4 weeks IHMO. For some unknown reson ive got what i can only explain as an E rbound, this happend 4 weeks after Last Letro Dose 2 weeks after last Aromasin.

This happened with me being drug free no AAS at all. The only thing i was talkin at the time was DIM at 400mg pd (200mg morning 200mg night b4 bed) This was for estrogen ratio control and as a post estrogen herbal treatment to help Naturaly Sabalise blood levels etc.

I was also Taking Milkthistle in preperation for a Detox (colon, bowel flush etc) ready for my blood works to be taken on Estrogen works etc.

Could DIM have been the caus of this? Or even the Milk thistle? or both.

I cant see it being DIM as its coverts bad to good estrogen, maybe it helped produce to much estrogen after such low amount of estrogen in my body and cause it this way??. and milk thistle? the only way i could see this happening is if by processing the toxins through my Liver etc in turn it some how weakend remains of estrogen protection in the blood? But these are only Theorised guesses.

Any experience or Knowlage??

ps started another estrogen treatment. seems to have gone a lot quicker this time round, first week in to it. (fingers crossed it goes quickly this tme, as in this week!! i dont want to be on e - protection again for any much longer)

Regards
Lee

[moobius]

I cant see it being DIM as its coverts bad to good estrogen,

that doesn't make any sense... 'bad' and 'good' estrogen? I've never heard of DIM, what exactly is this? 

sounds to me like classic E rebound. you should have run the aromasin longer and definitely tapered off of it. running that long on letro your E receptors are probably upregulated to do the (what i'm guessing) were extremely low levels in the blood stream. dropping the letro and running the aromasin (suicide inhibitor) you basically knocked the rest of the aromatase outta your system. dropping the aromasin from 25mg/day to 0 like that you probably got a surge of aromatase enzyme right at the time your E receptors are highly sensetive...

IMO you should have very slowly weened off the aromasin

[lee_fitness]

DIM diindolylmethane; its a phytochemical found in cruciferous vegetables ie broccoli and colliflour. It helps regulate Estriadol (most abundant estrogen found in the body also classes as the "bad" estrogen" tumour causeing etc) to the better form of estrogen Estriol / Esterone.

Thank you for your response.


I think you are right and i am kicking myself now after i put in so much effort and time to eliminating the Gyne.

I am quite astonished that 2 weeks after my last aromasin dose which was an extra day finishing at half dose (12.5mg) and a whole 4 weeks after Last letro doseing. A taper of 2 weeks to an approx 0.15-0.20mg finishing dose crossing over to the Aromasin, i still got a rebound.

In english the above translation ha ^^ I was astonished to get an e rebound 4 weeks after last Letro dose (tapering very carefully) and 2 weeks after last Aromasin Dose.

I am now treating the rebound with Letro and after an approx 2 weeks it has subsided alot faster than previous. I have only enough letrozole to last me approximatly 3 days at a 2.5mg dose. to avoid e rebound and get the best results from my Letrozole i want to dose at 2.5mgpd until it runs out (the next 3 days approx).

Now? after my Letro use i have aromaisn and adex to hand which and i am wanting to carry on with an AI to enssure the Gyne has gone the most it can. Which AI in your opinion woud be best suited for this to be acheived

Eg
Arimidex as it works in a similar function to Letro but with less Aromatise inhibitation.

or

Aromasin as it acts as a steroidal suicide aromatase inhibitor


Help will be greatly appreciated

Thanks again as always
Lee

[moobius]

definitely go with the arimidex... letro at 2.5mg/day is way overkill. the arimidex i'd say even .25mg/day would be plenty, run that for a couple weeks and then maybe hit .25mg/EOD for a week and just gauge it and ween yourself off. if you need to run it longer, then do so... you don't want to just go cold turkey on AI's as you'll just set yourself up for another rebound