Defining "Gender"

[Evolver]

Thanks for that, HeldUp. Your commentary on this issue is sensible, clear and welcome. I don't have the skillset to be able to put my words down in such a manner.

Moobzie, settle down. Our comments on this issue clearly demonstrate those of a Progressive vs. a Conservative, so we will never agree. Opinions are fine, and if this debate continues, I'm pretty sure we can continue to cherry-pick stuff to suit our narrative, so there's probably no point. Also, the moment emotion comes into it, it's game over.

By the way, Lia Thomas would whip my ass too!

[taxmapper]

Well again, I point out that most of the current discussion over the definition of Gender is based almost always based on incomplete, mis-identified, mis-applied and propogandized positions. 

The focus these days is IMO designed to do the one thing happening here. 
Divide. 

What has to be understood for many, is that this isn't a political issue. 

Me being somewhat right leaning but now more on the periphery, I have been watching a slow and deliberate deconstruction of the system in place as flawed as it is for decades. 
this is simply the latest itteration. 

The biological aspect of man boobs is because we have to find a way to define these things that fall outside the norm. 
I haven't met a man yet (including gay men) who DONT love boobs.  

But our society built over hundreds and if not thousands of years that men are men and sheep are scarce.   

Seriously though, the fact that I myself am growing breasts, have many female biological traits and have held many a year in trouble for the fight in my mind and body over where I fit, the main arguments based on what is in my opinion narcissistic egotism, with a healthy dose of old fashioned stupidity, has brought those of us who are the biological outcasts into the fray. 

But I fight every day to hold myself in that periphery because of the physical aspects. 

I would hope others can join in their own way. 

[Evolver]

The focus these days is IMO designed to do the one thing happening here.
Divide.

What has to be understood for many, is that this isn't a political issue.

The only reason I mentioned politics is that IMHO those on the right tend to be those who divide, to look for differences and exploit them, to look for opponents, to work against people rather than with them. No doubt some on the other side are like that too, but for me (and again to use Lia as an example), I'd rather build a bridge to her rather than a fence around her.

[Moobzie]

Tax: "IMO were off track here."  Totally agree, this has nothing to do with gynecomastia.  But since the discussion is underway ...

Heldup:  "Should women be able to compete? Yes! Should there be fairness in sport? Yes, but what is fair? That's the question that must be answered."
Precisely - but it's both sexist and misogynistic to maintain that only men identifying as women should be spokesmen for women in sports.  But...when a two-time soccer Olympic gold medalist female (Carli Lloyd) relates how her championship team of adult women lost to a team of 15 yr old boys because "They should beat us. Bigger, stronger, faster....", it's ignored in discussions like our current one.  Is this because only men who claim to be women are allowed to speak for women !??  Consider how J.K. Rowling, an open supporter of gay rights, has been treated in mainstream media and in the blogosphere because she has maintained that men are not women, and women are not men: Cancelled, publicly maligned, and physically threatened (she's had to have police protection!).  And the same for champion female athletes like Riley Gaines (physically attacked at SFSU).

One sports organization has said there should be a separate competition category for trans identified athletes.  Sounds like a solution.

[HeldUp]

• Trans women are not men in makeup, or cross-dressing sissies, or "men identifying as women"

• Trans women aren't out there to "steal" championships. They want to be able to compete.

• You seem be arguing that people are putting on a wig and running out onto the field of play. These athletes are included in the competition by the competition by strict, albeit incomplete, rule sets. There are rules about hormones, etc., that these athletes go to great lengths to comply with because they love sport. To think they do these things to simply win is ignorant at best and malicious at worst.

• Men training as men (even young men), not going through HRT--and also depending on WHEN they go on HRT, have advantages over women. They also have better access to sport, training, and other resources all across the globe. Give women's soccer the air time, money, facilities, and see how close the game can come to men's competitions.
• Saying dehumanizing things about people might make them and their allies angry. Heck, someone here was told they'd lose a swimming match and they started to beat their chest and put up their dukes! So to think that JK Rowling can spout filth and people won't get upset is delusional. Ms. Rowling has money and power and police protection is part of her daily life with or without TERF posts on Twitter. Also, Ms. Gaines, there's allegation of assault back in April and there may have been. If there was, that is deplorable, and I am sure you will update us when the charges are filed.
• Dismissing this conversation, yes the forum's theme is gynecomastia as is so religiously repeated, is short sighted. Gynecomastia (gyne = woman, mastos = breast) tethers to gender very directly. It's in the name! Trying to avoid conversation about how it affects and is affected by gender only enforces ignorance and protects cognitive dissonance.

[usetobeed]

Gynecomastia is defined as male breast enlargement. Yet, Lia is neither male, nor does she have breast enlargement. But please, carry on.

[oldguy]

Gynecomastia is defined as male breast enlargement. Yet, Lia is neither male, nor does she have breast enlargement. But please, carry on.

Amen.  This does not address our issues.  After 12 years on here, I understand that Members have moved on to next steps.  I actuality celebrate their choices.  Please don't separate us by the media and politics.  Life is too short.

[Moobzie]

Said it before, I'll say it again:  People are free to live out how they feel, and dress as they wish.  And free speech allows people to call themselves whatever they want.  Free speech ALSO allows people to disagree with people, as is evidenced here and in the many socio-cultural debates currently raging.
Name calling is avoiding an issue, not discussing it.   

Ad hominem comments like those expressed by Old Guy prove nothing.  Also, no one said they would fight - in response to a bigoted comment to me a member posted ("she'd whip your ass and you know it, even though you call yourself a...man") the gist of my response was that no one could know if that is true - simply because no one here knows any members abilities.  His comment was juvenile and stupid.

What I was trying to point out is that the physical advantages post pubertal males have over females has not only been amply demonstrated scientifically, but recognized by several international sports organizations: Cricket, rugby, cycling and swimming associations have all banned biological post pubertal males from competing against females.  The most recent is the International Cricket Council which stated:
"The new policy is based on the following principles (in order of priority), protection of the integrity of the women’s game, safety, fairness and inclusion, and this means any Male to Female participants who have been through any form of male puberty will not be eligible to participate in the international women’s game regardless of any surgery or gender reassignment treatment they may have undertaken."

Soooo.... I guess AOK, OG, and others here will be sending ad hominem, unscientific vitriolic messages to the ICC.

[usetobeed]

Soooo.... I guess AOK, OG, and others here will be sending ad hominem, unscientific vitriolic messages to the ICC.

I didn't send any "ad hominem, unscientific vitriolic messages". 

[Sophie]

I can say that for even myself, I find it impossible to take 7 billion people on this planet and say YOU are this or YOU are that. I think that people are who they are. I don't think that cherry picking news talking points helps. I think that it's a being reasonable. 

I know that before I transitioned, I was very careful about how I was dressed and which bathroom I would use. I felt like I passed well back then, however, I didn't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable. A the same time, I didn't and still don't like people who tell me what I am. I know what I am . I'm a woman of transgender experience. 

I was not always a woman and I didn't always have a vagina. I can't say that I've always felt like a woman because I have only been me. I can say that I have always related better to women than with men. I can say that when I watch a movie, I identify with the female lead and always have. If there was an argument in the movie, I would see things from her point of view. 

Anyway, I love all of you guys. You have always accepted me and no one here has ever tried to tell me who I  was. 

♥️Sophie♥️

[HeldUp]

The most recent is the International Cricket Council which stated:
"The new policy is based on the following principles (in order of priority), protection of the integrity of the women’s game, safety, fairness and inclusion, and this means any Male to Female participants who have been through any form of male puberty will not be eligible to participate in the international women’s game regardless of any surgery or gender reassignment treatment they may have undertaken."

ICC, homed formerly in England and now in the UAE, bastions of open and forward thinking in regards to gender. It's is their right to make a call when there are question marks out there; it's right to assess the options and make the a move even if it's initially exclusionary. I have written multiple times that gender in sport is a tricky affair. I've also stated that the women's game, even without the added complexities of transgender inclusion, is far behind in fairness/investment/respect to men's sport. If people would be as engaged with the women's game as they are at playing keyboard protectors of them, just think of how much progress could be made? Men's sport hasn't been always been as fast or dynamic as it is today, it's taken money and exposure and time to cultivate elite performances.

My issue with the kind of gender jingoism that has been posted in relation to sport is how it's adjoined with statements like "cross-dressing sissies", or aggressively misgendering people to minimize them, and then hiding behind "First Amendment free speech" as if that makes the comments any less...demeaning. These statements are hurtful, plain and simple. Trans people are living, breathing, good people; just as good as anyone else. Just because someone on Fox or OSN, or Matt Walsh, or Parker Posey, or whomever says there's some sort of "war" doesn't mean there is one. Their job is to get clicks, get advertising money, and say whatever it takes to make us angry or afraid so we'll be distracted...and click on the next video. It's our job to be human beings, love and live with each other. We don't get paid for it, but it's easier on the soul than lying on the television, YouTube, or be a disingenuous blowhard "one-uping" college kids on a stage.

Disrespect is not disagreement. It's protected under the First just the same, to a point, but isn't it better to hold discourse with respect? Won't points of view be more open to regard if the person stating them aren't relying on belittlement and disparagement? Someone wise once said, "Name calling is avoiding an issue, not discussing it."

[gotgyne]

Trans people are living, breathing, good people; just as good as anyone else.

Trans people are as good or bad as other people. The perpetrator of the Nashville school shooting on March 27, 2023 who killed 3 children and 3 adults, was Aiden Hale, a transgender man.

[HeldUp]

Trans people are living, breathing, good people; just as good as anyone else.

Trans people are as good or bad as other people. The perpetrator of the Nashville school shooting on March 27, 2023 who killed 3 children and 3 adults, was Aiden Hale, a transgender man.

I will maintain what I posted, that trans people are "just as good as anyone else".

Terrible things can be committed by a person of any group. The constant focus on singular cases to insinuate a grander problem is propaganda. There have been and will be crimes perpetrated by trans people. There seems to be an insinuation that these crimes are more depraved than those committed elsewhere in society because the criminal was trans. Need we drag out bags of statistics about non-trans persons committing crimes? Shall we enumerate the travesties committed daily and across time to counter-argue against this act of violence?

Will that help balance the mental equation?

No, it won't. People are happy to drag forward propagandist examples because it makes them feel better about treating certain peoples poorly; enforcing their bigotry and bias. That is why I won't trot some counter travesty either, because there is no equity in pain.

My one goal in this whole conversation is to try to get people to treat others humanely and meet them where they are. Get over the propaganda, get over the bias, get over wanting people to be less than. Be better.

[taxmapper]

Trans people are living, breathing, good people; just as good as anyone else.

Trans people are as good or bad as other people. The perpetrator of the Nashville school shooting on March 27, 2023 who killed 3 children and 3 adults, was Aiden Hale, a transgender man.

I will maintain what I posted, that trans people are "just as good as anyone else".

Terrible things can be committed by a person of any group. The constant focus on singular cases to insinuate a grander problem is propaganda. There have been and will be crimes perpetrated by trans people. There seems to be an insinuation that these crimes are more depraved than those committed elsewhere in society because the criminal was trans. Need we drag out bags of statistics about non-trans persons committing crimes? Shall we enumerate the travesties committed daily and across time to counter-argue against this act of violence?

Will that help balance the mental equation?

No, it won't. People are happy to drag forward propagandist examples because it makes them feel better about treating certain peoples poorly; enforcing their bigotry and bias. That is why I won't trot some counter travesty either, because there is no equity in pain.

My one goal in this whole conversation is to try to get people to treat others humanely and meet them where they are. Get over the propaganda, get over the bias, get over wanting people to be less than. Be better.

That singular line is the crux of this thread originally. 

To debate properly, you need the information. 

this is not what is being followed through with. 

[42CSurprise!]

I'm very late to this conversation and I can't honestly say I'm sorry I missed it.  I've written about the topic of gender many times on the Acceptance side of this website.  I understand that frightened people need simple answers to questions... frankly that is how most religions came into being and where most of the suffering in the world is rooted.  Unfortunately, neither our biological development nor our gender expression is simple.  Birdie makes the point beautifully... born with XY chromosomes he also was born with partially developed organs that supposedly belong only in a woman's body.  1 in 1,500?

https://isna.org/faq/frequency/

Then we have the matter of breasts that appear on boy's and men's bodies.  We understand that certain drugs prescribed to deal with health related challenges affect hormones.  We understand now that diminishing testosterone through medication allows estrogen found naturally in every body to express itself in development of breasts and rounder/softer bodies.  But most of the men here developed breasts in adolescence without having taken drugs.  We may have chromosomes announcing our masculinity but bodies that are not ready to make that statement.  Does that mean we're defective boys/men?  I've no doubt many of us felt that way and lived with shame about how our bodies were developing.  I expect those who choose to cut their breasts off do so in part out of shame.

So what are we dealing with here?  I've argued that there really is no such thing as a rigid definition of who we are.  We all reside on a continuum.  I've spoken of it as a gender continuum but in reality it has more to do with our bodies than our preferences... though when we finally come to terms with what our bodies at telling us, we can make a decision about how we wish to express ourselves.  Quite honestly I think there is a distinction between those of us who have lived with fleshy chests since we were adolescents and those who came to them after a lifetime of flat chests who now find themselves contending with breasts because medications delivered them.  A co-worker used the line "You never know until YOU'RE in the bullfighter's shoes."  Since I've had a fleshy chest my entire life I know what it is like to not quite fit in.  My years in a gym trying to tone my body really didn't take away my fleshy chest or give me a six pack.  My bottom has always been a bit round.  Learning about how hormones function helped me to understand that I'm a bit more on the feminine side of the continuum.  That doesn't convince me that I should transition.  It doesn't even demand that I wear a brassiere despite my rather voluptuous breasts.  I'm still a man but am comfortable considering myself non-binary.  I understand that blows the mind of anyone fixated on a strict binary definition of who we are.  Again, it will be those who need a rigid structure to survive who will struggle with the messiness of life.  We witness it in the religious and political realms... right at the moment, as a matter of fact.  I'm ever mindful of the old saw... "being right is the booby prize."

Self-acceptance and self-expression... gifts that keep on giving ONCE we're able to embrace them.  It really is okay to be exactly who we are.  Those who argue with that are not my friends.