Seroids have helped my gyne (pics)

[kicka]

Well i started a course of roids and ive put on 18 ib now i can see the diference so much as i have put this muscle on so quick but i can also share a photo of how its improving my looks
I think as im growing bigger im fitting the gyne more if you no what i mean? i mean its matching my body size



me last year carrying alot of excess fat



me slimmed but not lost much weight of chest



me on the roids 14ib heavier feeling 10 times more confident

you can still see the gybo but its not so noticable especialy if you dont no what it is as alot dont

what im trying to prove by this isnt that roids are good i just wanted to show the diference working out can make on yourself

[phantom]

Hello Kicka

I'm not too sure how to respond to you thread :-/

Firstly, if you are happier then that is the main thing.

Now I hope I am not being patronising by asking this, but are you aware that steroid use is one of the causes of gynaecomastia?  What can happen is that additional testosterone placed into the body aromatises or breaks-down into metabolites (smaller molecules) and one of those metabolites is oestrogen, a female hormone.  This can antagonise any pre-existing female receptors in the male body such as glandular or breast tissue, thus adding to any existing gynaecomastia.

I am the last person to lecture anyone on what they choose to put into their bodies, I just hope you are fully aware of the risks both short and long term.

Building the body up with drugs can mean that you are working out at a level your body is not used to.  Discontinuation of steroids often means sliding back down to an 'equilibrium'.  In other words, without drugs, your body will 'normalise' and return to where it would have been without drugs.

In the longer term, undue stress on your joints by weightlifting can cause arthritic problems later in life.

There is no denying that steroid use can make a big difference quickly and can have a real positive effect both mentally and physically.  I'd be lying if I said that I had not been tempted to use steroids, but after much research into the area, I figured that the potential risks outweighed the potential benefits.

I have been slogging it out at the gym for two years now.  I am seeing the results.  It's hard and I still have a way to go.  But my gynaecomastia is deemed as moderate/severe by my doctor and I know no amount of bench pressing is going to change it.  Taking steroids, at best would have just made my situation worse.

If you decide to continue with drugs as your route to 'treating' gynaecomastia, please make sure you fully understand what it is you are taking and it's long-term effects.  You may also want to weigh up the cost of taking them in the long-term v's surgery as I am of the opinion (and it is just my opinion) that this is the safest and most effective way in treating gynaecomastia in the long term.

Best wishes.

[Hypo-is-here]

Well I don't know where to start as A) Kicka is playing roulette with his body and health (sorry but you don't understand the ramifications of such) and B) Phantom, whilst certain you have the right spirit and got some things right to a degree, you do not really understand the dynamics at play here.

First of all as Phantom correctly pointed out steroids are a major cause of gynecomastia.

25% of all gynecomastia sufferers have the problem because of the effects of drugs and medications, of which it is thought steroid abuse accounts for a high number of cases.

This is something that can be readily seen by the number of people who regularly pass through this site stating that their gynecomastia developed due to the use of steroids.

I have seen this fact for two years so it is nothing new.

So the bottom line is steroids often cause gynecomastia.

Kicka advocating the use of steroids or implying they can help you with gynecomastia is akin to advocating the use of cigarettes in those with lung cancer

In other words it is so wrong that it is absurd.

A bit about the details;

The use of an exogenous aromatasing steroid is recognized by the hypothalamus which in turn down-regulates GnRH, that this in turn tells the pituitary to down-regulate the gonadotropins LH and FSH and that this in term suppresses/switches off your own endogenous testosterone production.

You might notice that your testicles are smaller on steroids- this is an example of reduced leydig cell and steroli cell function- atrophy thanks to the lack of gonadotropins.

Now this is not a problem whilst you are taking steroids as your testosterone is coming out of a syringe so you don't miss your bodies production.

However when you stop taking steroids, your enogenous production of testosterone is none existant because your pituitary LH level is undetectable/ 0.1.

So you now have a period of time, usually around three weeks before your body recognises the missing testosterone and adequately upregulates GnRH and LH and in turn testicular production of testosterone and sperm for that matter.

In the meantime you have LOW TESTOSTERONE.

Also because you have previously had a high level of testosterone your body naturally would have converted much of this excess via aromatse to estrogen and in particular the potent estrogen estradiol.

So you have LOW TESTOSTERONE and HIGH ESTRADIOL.

This is the perfect recipe for developing gynecomastia.

The reason is that the crucial androgen to estrogen balance/ratio has swung radically in favor of estrogens and estrogens go to work unopposed in the body and many of ERs Estrogen Receptors are located in the breasts.

Sometimes people who take a course (cycle as you guys term it) of steroids are unlucky and you go on to develop not only gynecomastioa but also more permanent affects.

High levels of steroids sometimes (far more often with greater numbers of courses) causes injury to the pituitary.

The pituitary along with the hypothalamus is like the boss of a factory that produce steel.

A boss of a steel factory makes sure his employees are working and producing steel and a working Hypothalamus and pituitary make sure the testicles are working and producing testosterone and sperm.

Now when as happens to many people abusing steroids your pituiatry gets injured and stops working either altogether or properly it is exactly like the boss of that factory getting ill and not coming into work.

What do you think happens?

In the analogy the boss is not in work so the factory workers take the pizz and laze bout and don't produce much steel.

In the real world when the pituitary stops working or working properly then the testicles do not produce enough testosterone or sperm.

The lack of testosterone leaves the individual with pituitary insufficiency otherwise known as hypogonadotropic hypogonadism and the lack of sperm leaves the individual infertile (one of the reasons fertility clinics see a LOT of ex bodybuilders).

Long term hypogonadim needs to be treated for life.

If as quite a few ex steroid taking bodybuilders you develop hypogonadism and it goes undiagnosed and untreated then you have a high chance of;

Developing Osteoporosis
Developing Diabetes
A higher statistical chance of dveloping Cardio Vascular Disease CVD.
A higher statistical chance of having a stroke
A higher statistical chance of developing Alzeimers
A higher statistical chance of developing erection difficulties
A higher statistical chance of having a greatly reduced libido
A higher statistical chance of developing depression

I could go on, but I'll leave that there.

Now I could go into the adverse affects that steroids have on the first pass on the liver or go into the adverse affects on the heart and the potential for cardiomyopathy via ventricular overload but I wont as these are more rarely seen and the above should be quite enough of a reason to not use steroids.


P.S

Other people might tell you different either down the gym or on bodybuilding sites.  And a lot of these guys try to sound as though they know what they are talking about, believe me when I say very few of them do and even if they did the risks of steroids would still be inherently there.

On which note even if you know guys who understand about PCT and the use of Aromatse inhibitors or anti-estrogens, without blood pathology it is all hit and miss anyway and what works for one guy wont necessarily work for you (genetic and body chemistry differences) and in any event no PCT in the world can prevent or help when it comes to the possibility of pituitary injury or in fact any of the long term affects I have detailed.

Kicka if working out helps you look better and feel more confident about yourself, that is good.  But seriously you would be far wiser placed to do it without the steroids.

Best to you.

[phantom]

Thanks for that Hypo-is-here

I completely agree that advocating the use of steroids is not appropriate for the treatment of gynaecomastia, not at least without medical supervision (though I am yet to hear of a medic that uses them for this condition).

"Phantom, whilst certain you have the right spirit and got some things right to a degree, you do not really understand the dynamics at play here."

As it happens, I do understand.  I work in andrology and more specifically male HRT.  However there are two points to note.  Firstly, I don't present the science as detailed as you do.  I try to target information that I believe will be easily understood and not 'turn' a reader off after a couple of sentences.

Secondly, whilst, like you I will try to guide forum uses towards 'best practice' by giving correct and appropriate information, I strongly defend the right of anyone to make their own personal choices about what they want to put in their bodies.

I made it clear that steroid use is with risk and needs in-depth understanding and if after weighing up the pros and cons of steroid use(abuse) the individual wants to go down this route, for whatever reason, then they need to appreciate the consequences - of which you have detailed very well.

The pathology of Gynaecomastia, in my opinion, is not a product of the 'offending' breast tissue.  Rather it's the psychological impact that is the disease.  Each man with gynaecomastia is affected differently and may seek help for all manor of reasons.  Whatever an individual decides to do about male chest reduction requires as much information as possible so that he can make that informed decision.  Some guys can't face the idea of surgery, whether the cost is prohibitive or not, but it is possible that they may seek alternatives.

Personally I don't see steroid use as an option - mainly for the reasons you outline.  But there will be some guys out there that think differently and nothing on this forum will stop them.  So for the reasons of 'harm limitation' providing that information in a way that can be understood easily is better than saying how 'bad' they are listing all the worst case possible outcomes.

Thank you for your input.

[bignipCT]

I think as im growing bigger im fitting the gyne more if you no what i mean? i mean its matching my body size



what im trying to prove by this isnt that roids are good i just wanted to show the diference working out can make on yourself

agree with this 100% i myself go natural an train hard an eat right.

[orrible]

Kicka thats an amazing transformation, how long did that take, also what exactly did you use to achieve those results? I agree that unless you know what gyne is its unlikely people would think you had that.

I think its interesting approach you have taken. Do you ever intend to get gyne free? I take it though that you are into bodybuilding and took roids to build muscle mass and not soley to try and resolve your gyne somewhat.

[kicka]

Thanks for that Hypo-is-here

I completely agree that advocating the use of steroids is not appropriate for the treatment of gynaecomastia, not at least without medical supervision (though I am yet to hear of a medic that uses them for this condition).

i have took other steroids but i have also been perscibed testosterone and was told i shouldnt need an op as getting my test up will sort it out! (By a gyne specialist in the uk)



ps i no all about all the bad points well writen and very well informed there hypo

[Hypo-is-here]

Thanks for that Hypo-is-here

I completely agree that advocating the use of steroids is not appropriate for the treatment of gynaecomastia, not at least without medical supervision (though I am yet to hear of a medic that uses them for this condition)

We both agree that self medicating (I prefer the term abusing) steroids is not appropriate for the treatment of gynecomastia and we both agree that it is a significant cause of gynecomastia in men.  However you seem unaware of the work of many endocrinologists that have used steroids in the treatment of gynecomastia.

Dihydrotestosterone (as you know a non aromatizable steroid) has been used with a degree of success in both controlled medical trials and is used and indeed licensed to treat gynecomastia in some European countries.

In Glen D. Braunstein’s 1993 medical white paper entitled Gynecomastia he details controlled trials that showed that dihydrotestosterone reduced palpable gynecomastia in 75% of men given it and that 25% of that 75% had complete resolution of gynecomastia.

You can obtain this white paper from the New England Journal of Medicine among other sources.

The result of this study have been concurred with in subsequent European trials.

Which is why Dihydrotestosterone is prescribed in Belgium for instance by the pharmaceutical company Bensin International under the name Andractim.

Note: This medication works only works on glandular gynecomastia, not pseudogynecomastia.  And it is most likely to be successful during the proliferation phase of gynecomastia, before the gynecomastia has become fibrous (usually in the first year of breast growth).

"Phantom, whilst certain you have the right spirit and got some things right to a degree, you do not really understand the dynamics at play here."

As it happens, I do understand.  I work in andrology and more specifically male HRT.  However there are two points to note.  Firstly, I don't present the science as detailed as you do.  I try to target information that I believe will be easily understood and not 'turn' a reader off after a couple of sentences.

Well you have your way and I have mine.  I think people are intelligent enough to read around the jargon and understand the detail, which is why I opt for a different approach.

Secondly, whilst, like you I will try to guide forum uses towards 'best practice' by giving correct and appropriate information, I strongly defend the right of anyone to make their own personal choices about what they want to put in their bodies.

To do that when the issue is as black and white as this one is IMHO not helping anyone.  Certainly if you said as much amongst your colleagues you would struggle to maintain your position in this field and would could under scrutiny from the medical body to which you are affiliated.

I made it clear that steroid use is with risk and needs in-depth understanding and if after weighing up the pros and cons of steroid use(abuse) the individual wants to go down this route, for whatever reason, then they need to appreciate the consequences - of which you have detailed very well.

Well that is upto you, personally I think that is being an apologist for steroid abuse.  This sort of blind eye approach to medicine is that helps keep millions of men in the dark when it comes to parity/equal medical care as women when it comes to hormone replacement therapy.  And I do not say that lightly, I say it because one of the biggest problems that male TRT has faced has been the old perception of steroid abuse, of it being a drug for bodybuilders and it being a dangerous drug - which of course it is when used in the quantities it typically is with those abusing it.  Your actions can help perpetuate this problem

The pathology of Gynaecomastia, in my opinion, is not a product of the 'offending' breast tissue.  Rather it's the psychological impact that is the disease.  Each man with gynaecomastia is affected differently and may seek help for all manor of reasons.  Whatever an individual decides to do about male chest reduction requires as much information as possible so that he can make that informed decision.  Some guys can't face the idea of surgery, whether the cost is prohibitive or not, but it is possible that they may seek alternatives.

Your opinion here is just simply odd and not medically based at all!

The pathology of gynecomastia relates to many differing aetiologies/causative factors some of which are vitally important to uncover!!!

Gynecomastia can be a symptom of hypogonadism as it is for 10% of all sufferers, or Liver disease as it is for 8% of all sufferers, or Renal disease, or hyperthyroidism, or testicular malignancies etc

It can be a sign of a variety of genetic conditions etc

So I have no idea what you are talking about really.

A significant minority of men have the above.  All in all these conditions account at a relative frequency that accounts for 25% of all gynecomastia sufferers.

Leaving that aside if you are talking about the men that simply have idiopathic gynecomastia and the psychological impact of the condition and how it affects people well fine.  But quite why you are using terms such as pathology in this context is, well odd to say the least.

Personally I don't see steroid use as an option - mainly for the reasons you outline.  

I should hope not!!!

But there will be some guys out there that think differently and nothing on this forum will stop them.  So for the reasons of 'harm limitation' providing that information in a way that can be understood easily is better than saying how 'bad' they are listing all the worst case possible outcomes.

Of course people will often do what they want and ignore advice, but this shouldn’t mean that people fail to give the best advice!!

And I think in trying to be, how should I put this;  

Well in trying to play the “freedom to act” card I think you are being very wooly and simply not giving the best advice- far from it in fact.

Thank you for your input.

Not at all thank you for yours.

[phantom]

On the contrary to what you have said, clearly this is a subject whereby we could continue to pick holes in each others statements.  As you claim to identify points that do not correlate with your understanding and I can find a number of assumptions you make about me and my background in this matter.

Clearly we are speaking from both very different view points both medically and socially.  Whilst the pharmacology and pharmacokinetics of male HRT have somewhat a scientific line to them, the sociological and psychological issues associated with drug use, be it self-medicated or under medical direction do not by comparison and that is where your understanding appears, in my opinion to be deficient.

I leave the matter here as not to hijack this thread further.

[silly_guy]

I'd like to add something.  I have not read the entire post btw (too many fancy buzz-words going around here), just a quick observation.

You're talking about illegal steroids?  If so, cover your face, man, so not to incriminate yourself.  Do the black-dot over the face, or the ninja-style towel wrap.

Btw, looking good.  Good to see people here getting good results from building body mass.  Kinda pokes a hole in the whole, "building your chest makes gyne worse" argument.

[Paa_Paw]

The bottom line is that if a person has gynecomastia due to a testosterone shortage, Then steroids can be helpful. But, if a person with normal testosterone levels takes steroids they might well cause Gynecomastia.

These kinds of steroids are valuable for some men if taken under competent medical supervision which would include tests to determine hormone levels.  If taken without competent medical supervision and monitoring, these drugs can be dangerous.

[Hypo-is-here]

So when I guy talks about a roids course, we are talking about something self prescribed and at supraphysilogical levels.

As opposed to TRT.

I stand by every word I have said.

Though I agree with the sentiment of Paw Paw.

P.S

If you want to say I am wrong- prove it!!!!!  

Don't try and wing it or bull crap it, be honest, intelligent and prove your point.  

Either prove your point or accept the facts as I have presented them.

[kicka]

You're talking about illegal steroids?  If so, cover your face, man, so not to incriminate yourself.  Do the black-dot over the face, or the ninja-style towel wrap.

cheers for the remarks dont worry about my face i do have a perscription for testosterone if any one asks and i am from the uk

the law here is very diferent from america when it comes to steroids i believe in the states it is as bad as crack or heroin to be caught with

here in the uk i have been caught with personal use steroids and was handed them back within a week as personal use is not ilegal

im glad i caused alot of good dicussion here , i will coment on the arguament about me building my chest and the puffy nips

I have done no flat benching whatsoever i have done incline bench to build the top of my chest up and i will be concentrating on getting the centre bigger,

So far as the gland goes its still solid there in the centre although looking at my own pics some fat has defo gone

What i am intending to do is build the muscle up around the gyne so as the rest of my chest protrudes more equally but in doing this my shoulders are widening and my lats are pulling my back wider and spreading my sides.

I think it could also be benificiary to point out to other that on top of test (and a few other things that would cause gyne as pointed out) i am also using 40 mg a day of tamoxifen to keep the estrogen down an adverse effect of having to much test in the blood, but this could also be reversing gyne,  also i have used a preparation called hcg which is pregnant womans pee, to stop any hypogondism (sorry spelling)

As hypo very well pointed out I am at a risk of my balls shrinking and that can cause all sorts of problems further down the line.

i have asked many times on here about people who have used tamoxifen and what results they saw but i never got any replies.

The gyne specialist said my case of gyne definately looked consistant of hormone imbalance as it was so simetrical.

i am a terrible speller and i wanted to try give as much background on my case and why this has worked for me, hope i highlighted that abit

[kicka]

Kicka thats an amazing transformation, how long did that take, also what exactly did you use to achieve those results? I agree that unless you know what gyne is its unlikely people would think you had that.

I think its interesting approach you have taken. Do you ever intend to get gyne free? I take it though that you are into bodybuilding and took roids to build muscle mass and not soley to try and resolve your gyne somewhat.

Hi and cheers for the coments first question yes id love to be gyne free and i am in the process of the nhs!! i have had some back up help from some 1 on here about getting it done privately though incase the nhs ever kick me back (which wouldnt surprise me)

I had a couple of consultations with the specialist at the hospital and am in a five month waiting zone to see if the gyne wil go on its own other wise i can have the knife IM TOLD

Well i didnt do this with just the intention of getting gyne free and yes i have been a body builder before i stopped going about 3 years ago and developed gyne due to reasons hypo pointed out. Alos i was put on diazepam which would of made the situation alot worse.

I mostly have wanted to train like this to feel abit more like the guy i used to be. Its very upsetting to go from being big to being very small and with breasts just to make matters 100 times worse! people can be very unkind with words especially those who through there own paranoi have felt abit inadequate around you as you used to be so big!!.

Its taken me just over a month to go from the 2nd photo to the 3rd so far i have gained a solid 16 pounds and im not carying alot of water due to the tamoxifen.

give or take 2-3 pounds for water

I spend 38 pounds alone every five days on protein as i drink 4 shakes a day porridge chicken you no the whole diet thing which i have learnt alot about through being a member of muscletalk.co.uk basically ive just spent the last year reading up on the preparations and how to try to combat the side efects and just generally being alot more knowlegable than i was first time i went on them. I was a fool to do that then.

[kicka]

sorry edit triple post