TAMOXIFEN- bad experience!

[Stardog]

Hi people, I've had a pretty worrying development today and wanted to share it incase anyone else is thinking of taking tamoxifen/nolvadex for gyno.

I took some tribulus supplements a few months ago that were supposed to increase testosterone, supposedly harmlessly and would help add muscle. It did work mildly but unfortunately I developed gyno a couple weeks later from it, which freaked me out a bit, although it was really small, just puffy nipples really. I stopped taking the supplements and thought that was the end of it really.

About 2 months passed, and I noticed the lump getting bigger, now it was over 2cm pressed in-between my fingers, and was still very tender (apparently a sign that it is growing). Here I started to panic a lil. I went to the doctor, suggesting he put me on an anti-estrogen, but he was having none of it, and told me it'd go away on its own.

So, after doing some research and realising that generally it doesn't go away by itself, and probably would get bigger, I decided to order tamoxifen citrate over the net. Apparently it had worked for many bodybuilders and although I've never touched steroids in my life, essentially the same effect had happened, with estrogen levels rising too high with the testosterone.

I started on 40mg a day, and reduced to 20mg in a few days. Basically a couple of days ago I had a very scary side-effect in the form of black floaters in my eyes, and blurred vision. I decided to stop the tamoxifen until my vision returned to normal, as I didn't want to damage my eyesight any further, I already only have vision out of one eye and my vision is too precious.

Yesterday, after having stopped the tam, I woke up with severe muscle pains, sore throat, and extreme tiredness throughout my body. Today I have noticed swelling on one side of my neck in addition to the sore throat, indicating thyroid problems. So I'm freaking out right now as I may have f**** up my endocrine system/thyroid gland for life and I'm only 20. I hope not.

I know many have taken it successfully with no side-effects but this was not the case for me. The bodybuilding boards had me thinking this stuff is harmless, which it definitely is not. I just hope these sides are reversible and I don't end up with long-term probs.

[AvionicsMarine]

that is really rare because i have also read about many people taking it with no problems. i have also never heard about anyone getting gyno from tribulus before

[Clandestine]

In fact, the ONLY study that comes to the conclusion Tribulus raises testosterone via raising LH is one financed and carried out by a suplement manufacturer.

If you search pub-med, you'll find a load of tribulus trials, all of which show ZERO change in LH, Test and Oestrogen when administered. All these trials are "double blind", ie one group is given a placibo, another is given tribulus and neither groups know which pill they got.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Trib doesn't make you horny, it certainly has an effect on me. I've taken trib before at ~1000mg a day, usually the 90% saponin Bulgarian stuff, it gave me boners so intense it was painful art times As far as it raising testosterone, like I say it's unproven, and probably untrue.

Here is the summary of such a double blind trial, direct link is at the end:


Design and methods:
Twenty-one healthy young 20–36 years old men with body weight ranging from 60 to 125 kg were randomly separated into three groups—two experimental (each n = 7) and a control (placebo) one (n = 7). The experimental groups were named TT1 and TT2 and the subjects were assigned to consume 20 and 10 mg/kg body weight per day of Tribulus terrestris extract, respectively, separated into three daily intakes for 4 weeks. Testosterone, androstenedione and luteinizing hormone levels in the serum were measured 24 h before supplementation (clear probe), and at 24, 72, 240, 408 and 576 h from the beginning of the supplementation.

Results:
There was no significant difference between Tribulus terrestris supplemented groups and controls in the serum testosterone (TT1 (mean ± S.D.: 15.75 ± 1.75 nmol/l); TT2 (mean ± S.D.: 16.32 ± 1.57 nmol/l); controls (mean ± S.D.: 17.74 ± 1.09 nmol/l) (p > 0.05)), androstenedione (TT1 (mean ± S.D.: 1.927 ± 0.126 ng/ml); TT2 (mean ± S.D.: 2.026 ± 0.256 ng/ml); controls (mean ± S.D.: 1.952 ± 0.236 ng/ml) (p > 0.05)) or luteinizing hormone (TT1 (mean ± S.D.: 4.662 ± 0.274 U/l); TT2 (mean ± S.D.: 4.103 ± 0.869 U/l); controls (mean ± S.D.: 4.170 ± 0.406 U/l) (p > 0.05)) levels. All results were within the normal range. The findings in the current study anticipate that Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins possess neither direct nor indirect androgen-increasing properties. The study will be extended in the clarifying the probable mode of action of Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins.

Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T8D-4GHSGMF-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c63c95aef8535eddf7f04508592f54c4

[Stardog]

Yeah, it probably is very rare, but I'm telling ya it started very soon after starting the tribulus. I'm 20 yrs old so it wasn't pubertal gyno (I had that when I was 15)

there are a few other reports of trib causing gyno, if you look around. Maybe you need to have high est. levels to start with, I dunno

P.s. I got half a bottle of very strong trib left if anyone wants it :p

[Badgene]

it makes you horny? does it do this permanently? like does the testosterone stay up? I wonder if I have a testosterone issue, ironically made worse from other meds I tried.

And I too suddenly have a thyroid situation suddenly after taking perscription meds.....

[moobius]

your experience wasn't related to the tamoxifen... at least not if you got legit stuff.

[Paa_Paw]

Tribulus is sometimes used by weightlifters after a steroid cycle in the belief that is will help restart the normal testosterone while continuing to build muscle. There is no medical evidence that it does either of these things.

If you had muscle gain it was probably due to your workout program, not Tribulus.

So you probably simply got ripped off. You'll probably need to look further to find the cause of your breast growth as well.

What else have you been using that you failed to mention?

[Stardog]

Ok, if people don't believe me here that's fine. The fact is though that Tribulus DOES alter hormone levels in the body (by raising LH levels), at least if you buy the proper, high quality variety. I even read about the possibility of developing gyno before taking the trib.

Here is just one post that links tribulus with gyno: http://www.menshealth.co.uk/chatroom/topic/309863?startnum=1

And no, I haven't taken anything other than trib/tamox...

Also I should say the thyroid problem was probably a red herring; I've likely been suffering from an infection for the past few days so the symptoms are probably from that. Really it's after reading so many scare stories (mostly on this site) that I came to such a conclusion. The vision problems were real however, and luckily have now ceased.

[Clandestine]

The fact is though that Tribulus DOES alter hormone levels in the body (by raising LH levels),

No.. there is ONE, 1, A SINGLE supposedly clinical test financed by a manufacturer and distributor of Bulgarian Tribulus that says it does.

That's the ONLY trial EVER that's come to that conclusion. Every other trial I've seen - and don't take my word for it, search "Tribulus LH" on pub-med- says it doesn't alter Test, Oestro or LH in any way.

And as for the post you linked in mens health forums... questionable. The dude goes on about getting gyno from trib. He also says he's gone from 11 stone (154 lb) to 15 stone (210 lb), so any excess boobage probably came from the weight gain. Excess fat can be a contributing factor in gyno formation due to increased aromatase activity.

If you believe you got gyno from trib, fair enough. You haven't given enough evidence for anyone to believe you, other than posting anecdotal accounts. Get some bloodwork done. If you say it raises LH, prove it. Do some before and after experiments.

Once again: Tribulus Terrestris most probably does NOT alter Testosterone production in any way, including via raising LH.

About your Tamox sides: All SERM's, Tamox, Clomiphene, Toremifene et al, can cause strange vision anomolies. The effect you experienced is commonly called "tracers". Blured vision is also common. My sister in law has had 3 courses of Clomid to induce ovulation. Twice of the threetimes she got tracers. This was @ 50mg of clomid per day. The doctor lowered the dose to 25mg for her third course, and the tracer effect did not occur.

Remember, Tamox is a very old drug, useful for treating breast cancer. It does however have harmful effects. It can increase likelyhood of cancers in other parts of the body for one. That in my books makes it carcinagenic. Stay away from the stuff!

[Stardog]

Ok, if you're gonna stick to your skeptical view that's fine. That was just one account I've seen, amongst others, I've also seen warnings of gyno formation on various BB sites which suggest people take an anti-estrogen with the trib. I can also say that I'm a skinny guy and have gained no weight, just a tender booby...

[MSJ108]

that is really rare because i have also read about many people taking it with no problems. i have also never heard about anyone getting gyno from tribulus before

same here

[frustratedOz]

I do get really bad side effects from taking tomaxifen as well.
Mi vision is affected and get huge headaches that don't go away. I can't not concentrate properly and basically feel like shit!

I tried to stick with the treatment for 2 weeks putting up with the side effects. The tenderness on my nipples went away but the side effects from taking tomax unbearable. I just couldn't continue taking that staff.  Then my endocrinologist prescribed my rolaxifen and the side effects weren't as bad as tomaxifen but still pretty horrible. It seems like my body doesn't get on very well with estrogen blockers.

[sunny007]

I think you have started with 40mg tamo. Which is more than reccomded for gyno.My endo precribed me 10mg of tamo for six months , to check whether it works or not.But i have not started

[Paa_Paw]

We are all different, a drug that you might take with no adverse reaction may cause me to have muscle cramps for example.

Anyone taking any kind of drug or herbal product with the intent of altering their hormonal levels is truly like a 5 year old playing with a box of blasting caps except that they are old enough that they should know better.

Such things should be taken only if prescribe by, and under the scrutiny of, a competent Medical Doctor.

[MSJ108]

We are all different, a drug that you might take with no adverse reaction may cause me to have muscle cramps for example.

Anyone taking any kind of drug or herbal product with the intent of altering their hormonal levels is truly like a 5 year old playing with a box of blasting caps except that they are old enough that they should know better.

Such things should be taken only if prescribe by, and under the scrutiny of, a competent Medical Doctor.

 

good post