nolvadex and gynecomastia

[Grrrrr]

The biggest problem of using Nolvadex as post cycle therapy is that it is in effect an actual estrogen itself.
The way it 'works' is to block your estrogen receptors with a relatively mild type of estrogen.

One of the major problems with using Nolvadex is that some people find even though this estrogen is mild, it can still often be enough to actually cause gynecomastia or fail to prevent it occuring PCT.

The bottom line is it's a bit of a lottery. Most people find it works very effectively when combined with true anti estrogens like Proviron, which actually reduce the levels of estrogens in your body. And when combined with HCG to kickstart your own supply of testosterone, which is stopped by the use of the roids, it usually works very well.

However, unfortunately all the safe guards in the world provide no guarantee. Some people 'myself included' are so susceptible to gyne that even getting your dosages spot on dosen't necessarilly work.

The other major problem is so many of the drugs on the market are actually fakes and don't contain exactly what they say, or in the correct dosages so really you just can never be completely sure. Nine times out of ten 'deca' is just a low dosage enanthate with the wrong label. And this is just one example of how it's nigh on impossible to get your dosages correct.

Granted if you do your PCT research very thoroughly, and make sure you get quality products the vast majority of people will find they won't have a problem.

Unfortunately i'm a living testament to even with the best intentions and getting everything 'technically' as it's supposed to be and in the right dosages. Yes hypo is right they don't always work. Genetics plays a huge factor.

I kind of agree with hypo. He just sort of misses the issues at hand and randomly spouts reams of data that are never particulary relevant to the topic in hand. No offence mate. It's just really I do agree with a lot you say. Apart from 10% of people with gyne having hypoganidsm, that's just stupid. But anyway as an anology your answers to peoples questions are like someone talking about how to rebuild a carburettor, and you telling them how the gearbox works  

This was a thread on Nolvadex and PCT. The reason you get into so many flames is you take a moral stance and don't deal with questions about the actual substances themselves or how they work. I think this may be because whilst granted you know a little about the endocrine system, I think your extremely unknowledgeable on the different steroids and drugs used by bodybuilders.

Plus my god the stuff you type is so mind numbingly boring. I'm sure your aware of that. Perhaps instead of quoting every response you make as an endocrine thread, im sure if you dealt with the questions in hand you could avoid a lot of the arguements you continually get into.

This is a forum for gynecomastia. Like it or not bodybuilders represent a section of this forum. Open healthy debate on different ways to combat gyne PCT are perfectly legitimate issues to raise. You just deal with them in such a dissapointing way.

As unbiased as this thread is, and how i've clearly explained PCT is a bit of a lottery, try and avoid the moral high ground. It really pisses a lot of people off.

Now try and be a man about it and accept there are a lot of truths in this post, like it or not. Take it on board, what i've said to you is really not meant offensively. You just don't seem to understand people very well.

And another thing there is NOT a single debate you get into where you don't have the last say. There's no need to be stubborn. Make a point, move on. This constant need to have the last word on every debate you get into is a little childish. And i'm sorry to have to tell you that.

[Hypo-is-here]

The biggest problem of using Nolvadex as post cycle therapy is that it is in effect an actual estrogen itself.
The way it 'works' is to block your estrogen receptors with a relatively mild type of estrogen.

One of the major problems with using Nolvadex is that some people find even though this estrogen is mild, it can still often be enough to actually cause gynecomastia or fail to prevent it occuring PCT.
.

This is wrong.  Although Nolvadex, (which is just the brand name for Tamoxifen by the way) has estrogenic properties it is much a weaker estrogen than the potent estradiol and absolutely does not cause gynecomastia in the manner in which you have described.  That said you are correct in that it doesn’t always help prevent gynecomastia, which was my point in challenging the bad advice previously given.

The bottom line is it's a bit of a lottery. Most people find it works very effectively when combined with true anti estrogens like Proviron which actually reduce the levels of estrogens in your body. And when combined with HCG to kickstart your own supply of testosterone, which is stopped by the use of the roids, it usually works very well.
.

Proviron is not an anti estrogen it is a mild androgen.  You say most people find Nolvadex works effectively when combined with proviron and or HCG.  I put it to you that you don’t know whether this statement is true or not and ask you to produce evidence for these claims.

The fact is when people self medicate AAS with or without PCT they do not know with any certainty what the outcome will be or whether they will develop gynecomastia or not and we have no statistical evidence to say what is likely to work and prevent gynecomastia or not.  One thing for sure the greater the stack of AAS or greater the number of drugs taken including PCT the greater the possibility of drug interactions occurring beyond the understanding of the individual taking them.  Proviron is well known to suppress the HPTA in some men and actually reduce testosterone production, also HCG is also well known to raise both estradiol and progesterone and in doing so cause gynecomastia.  A third of men prescribed HCG for fertility purposes go on to develop gynecomastia.

However, unfortunately all the safe guards in the world provide no guarantee. Some people 'myself included' are so susceptible to gyne that even getting your dosages spot on dosen't necessarilly work.
.

Correct, and from what you have told me you are a living example as to why my advice has been good in this thread.  You embody the legitimacy of my words and are a living example that counter some of the less kind comments you have made about me.

The other major problem is so many of the drugs on the market are actually fakes and don't contain exactly what they say, or in the correct dosages so really you just can never be completely sure. Nine times out of ten 'deca' is just a low dosage enanthate with the wrong label. And this is just one example of how it's nigh on impossible to get your dosages correct.
.

I cannot comment on the statistical nature of the problem of fake meds obtained, but I can concur that it is a known problem and another reason why my advice is good, why I corrected the poor advice and why I stand by my comments.

Granted if you do your PCT research very thoroughly, and make sure you get quality products the vast majority of people will find they won't have a problem.
.

That is another unsubstantiated statement; we do not have any statistics for this and you know it.  We simply do not know how many people as a percentage on AAS who take PCT develop gynecomastia in comparison to those that do not and the detailed reasons that differentiate between the two.  If you feel I am being unfair in saying your statement is unfounded please produce the statistical evidence that evidences your claim.  

Unfortunately i'm a living testament to even with the best intentions and getting everything 'technically' as it's supposed to be and in the right dosages. Yes hypo is right they don't always work. Genetics plays a huge factor.
.

Again hence the advice.

I kind of agree with hypo. He just sort of misses the issues at hand and randomly spouts reams of data that are never particulary relevant to the topic in hand. No offence mate. It's just really I do agree with a lot you say. Apart from 10% of people with gyne having hypoganidsm, that's just stupid. But anyway as an anology your answers to peoples questions are like someone talking about how to rebuild a carburettor, and you telling them how the gearbox works  
.

Now that is a bit of a curveball isn’t it, you kind of agree with me, but then go onto criticize me and the relevance of my comments.

Please detail exactly/specifically what wasn’t relevant in my posts instead of just making generalized criticisms.  The 10% of all gynecomastia sufferers having hypogonadism is taken from Glen Braunstein (world leading endocrinologist) and his 1993 white paper gynecomastia and is concurred with by Ismail and Barth biochemists in their 2002 white paper endocrinology of gynecomastia.  

So the fact/figures quoted are not mine, but the current medical position on gynecomastia.  You can disagree with this if you wish but to say the work of a world leading endocrinologist and that of two leading biochemists is quote “just stupid”.  Well I find that a bit rich.  In terms of answering peoples questions I try very hard to ensure that my answers are both detailed and pertinent, so it is dismaying if people think otherwise.  In this specific thread I have responded to the fact that someone dismissed the influence of genetics and I have explained that the testosterone to estrogen ratio is not the only cause for gynecomastia.  I have then gone onto detail why it is bad advice to encourage the continued use of AAS or testosterone boosters to someone who has previously suffered form gynecomastia irrespective of the use of PCT.

Now Like I said it is dismaying then if my posts have not been to the point and as a point of my own I would like you to detail specifically how my posts have not been to the point instead of making generalized unsubstantiated criticisms.

This was a thread on Nolvadex and PCT. The reason you get into so many flames is you take a moral stance and don't deal with questions about the actual substances themselves or how they work.
.

I have not taken a moral stance, my stance has been one taken/based on the practical implications of taking AAS or testosterone boosters irrespective of PCT and I feel I have spent quite some time detailing why that is so and answering additional question/points raised.  

I am anti steroid abuse for very real practical reasons and morals have nothing to do with it.
It is a position I share with almost every single medical authority, and organization on this planet and something I am not about to aploogise for just because it offends your off kilter sensibilities and misguided notions.  Steroids, anti estrogens, aromatase inhibitors, proviron, HCG etc all have a place and a correct setting for their use.  I take such medications every day so I am not on some moral crusade against them.

I think this may be because whilst granted you know a little about the endocrine system, I think your extremely unknowledgeable on the different steroids and drugs used by bodybuilders.
.

Mmm  I think you are taking swipes at me in the dark.  You do not know me well enough to make such remarks and are just looking to insult me where you can because you haven’t got any grounds to base legitimate criticism, again this is because my sensibilities differ from your own and you don’t like it.  Not only do I know an awful lot about the substances you are talking about, I also know an awful lot about how they work in the endocrine system and have detailed knowledge and first hand experience at studying their effect in pathology my own and that of other men.  I have also spoken with some of the worlds leading endocrinologist and endocrine organizations.  So perhaps my angle is different to yours, but I believe my scope and understand is much greater.

Plus my god the stuff you type is so mind numbingly boring. I'm sure your aware of that. Perhaps instead of quoting every response you make as an endocrine thread, im sure if you dealt with the questions in hand you could avoid a lot of the arguements you continually get into.
.

If you find what I have to say boring, use your prerogative and don’t read what I have to say, no one is forcing you to read what I say and no one is forcing you to engage in conversation with me.  I do make posts on none endocrine matters, but there are plenty of guys here who are brilliant at dealing with non endocrine matters and very few who truly know what they are talking about when it comes to these matters and giving out good advice.  So I try to help where I feel I can serve people best.  You will have to forgive me if I don’t take your advice, I just don’t think you have given me any good logical reasoning that is worthy of consideration.  I only get into arguments with those advocating the abuse of steroids or those that give patently poor advice or information on these specific matters (I have resigned myself to this fact- it comes with the territory).  

I am not apologizing for helping to safeguard peoples health with good advice- sorry.

It is all very well people giving poor advice in this area when they do not risk the potential consequences of such and suffer as a result (the bravery of being out of range).  I try to ensure that any advice I give first and foremost does not cause any harm and that it is something that can be happily shown to a doctor or third party.

This is a forum for gynecomastia. Like it or not bodybuilders represent a section of this forum. Open healthy debate on different ways to combat gyne PCT are perfectly legitimate issues to raise. You just deal with them in such a dissapointing way.

I don’t need you to tell me that this is a forum for gynecomastia, I am perfectly aware of this fact having been here for over two years.  I have no problem that bodybuilders are here.  Many bodybuilders are clean, something I would recommend from a health perspective.  For those that are using steroids I hope they don’t get gynecomastia and for those that do I offer my sympathy, because gynecomastia isn’t nice for anyone irrespective of how they obtain it.  Either way I wont moralize and will help and support where I can.  I can do this and still be anti steroid abuse, I say it again, I am anti steroid abuse for practical not moral reasons, anti steroid abuse not anti bodybuilder.  You say open and healthy debate on different ways to combat gyne PCT are perfectly legitimate issues to raise.  Yes I concur, I am engaging in open debate about these issues.  It is just I am offering a perspective that you do not like to hear.  You cannot champion free speech and then hammer me for choosing to speak in a way that you do not like.  I have not at any point told you or anyone else that they cannot speak.  I have not asked a moderator to limit your freedoms or right of expression in any way.  

You say I deal with these issues in a disappointing way.  

Only in your opinion

I am equally disappointed in what you have to say, particularly in things like unsubstantiated statements, and generalized insults, but you are free to say and exchange your ideas and views without hindrance from me.

As unbiased as this thread is, and how i've clearly explained PCT is a bit of a lottery, try and avoid the moral high ground. It really pisses a lot of people off.

Like I said I am not on any moral high ground.

Now try and be a man about it and accept there are a lot of truths in this post, like it or not. Take it on board, what i've said to you is really not meant offensively. You just don't seem to understand people very well.

Firstly do not try to tell me how to act like a man or in fact lecture me on behavior whilst you are casting unwarranted insults I don’t appreciate it.  Secondly do not patronize me about my need to take on board what you have said, I really don’t think you have said anything that ground breaking and you have meant to be offensive and only an ignoranmous would think otherwise, it is just that you have dressed up the insults in some cloths to try and hide the fact.  An elephant is still an elephant irrespective of whether you put a tutu on it.

And another thing there is NOT a single debate you get into where you don't have the last say. There's no need to be stubborn. Make a point, move on. This constant need to have the last word on every debate you get into is a little childish. And i'm sorry to have to tell you that.

Oh how very reverse psychology of you, it implies I should have to leave what you have had to say unchallenged otherwise I am childish.  Really you’ll have to do a lot better than that, if you are going to use semantics at least have the courteously to be a little bit clever with them.


BOTTOM LINE:


My advice in this thread was very good, nothing else matters in the long run.  

[flex1appeal]

Apology accepted. And I do know quite a bit of what you mentioned but as you said, it is quite long. So, because I chose to write such short answers you had every right to assume I don't know much of what I say. Not that I don't know but I try to give shorter answers that sum up my entire thought or explanation. So it leaves alot of room to read between the lines. Anyhow, I don't take responsibility for anyone's actions. I never professed to this guy that I was a professional and he should therefore follow my advice. In fact, it wasn't advice, it was a statement. He who chooses to use that statement as advice is responsible for himself and the consequences thereof.

[NDean]

Hello all,
I started this thread for a few answers and WOW... I got a lot more!  I guess from what all you guys are saying, I shouldn't take Superdrol.  But since I've already had gyno cut out of my left side and currently have a mild case on my right, should I take an anti-estrogen just to prevent it from coming back?  Also, can I take creatine and protien supplements?  Please let me know what you guys think, but please don't beat the crap out of each other over it.  Thanks for your help.
Noah

[Hypo-is-here]

You have a PM Noah.

[flex1appeal]

I just now read what grr wrote not realizing I posted to Hypo's last reply to me. I got so wrapped up in this nonsense debate that I forgot what the point of this thread was. And grrr said it best that you try and bring too much into the question at hand. This guy wasn't looking for someone to tell him whether or not he should take AAS or nolvadex or proviron or arimidex or any other drug. He's pretty much going to do it if he wants. He was looking for some guidance in what to take and when to take. it. And grr, I personally wouldn't take nolvadex myself as it is just an estrogen blocker. Instead, I'd take something like Arimidex which inhibits aromatization altogether. No estrogen conversion no problem. And maybe you cannot tell without certainty Hypo that these medications will or will not help but I can speak from experience and many other bodybuilders I know out there who use AAS can also atest to having no problems EVER from using proper PCT. You want to talk to an expert on this matter? Talk to Chad Nicholls. He'll blow your knowledge right out of the fucking water. See, my knowledge isn't backed up by books and hypothetical or scientific studies. Mine is backed up from personal trial and error and others (100's and 100's of others I know) who can also back it up with 20 years experience using these drugs. Maybe there is a small margin of error in who will and won't get it regardless of using these drugs but the error percentage will favor those who are not genetically predisposed to conditions causing gyne. They will favor those who are more susceptible to getting it only from means like AAS. In which case, taking proper PCT will surely work. And that's if they do know how to properly take it. I developed my gyno only during the time that I didn't take proper PCT because it wasn't easily accessible to me. I dared to continue on in bodybuilding and AAS without it for a brief time. When I came off my cycles for a year or so, I developed gyno. That is my fault. But I can tell you that for 12 years prior, I had no problems while using Nolvadex/arimidex/Hcg/Clomid or any other PCT drugs. You are completely wrong my friend. Texts book knowledge is not enough to dictate who is wrong and who is right. It is proven thru trial and error of thousands of bodybuilders who have no problems while on proper PCT. THAT my friend is a FACT. Like or leave.

[Hypo-is-here]

I just now read what grr wrote not realizing I posted to Hypo's last reply to me. I got so wrapped up in this nonsense debate that I forgot what the point of this thread was. And grrr said it best that you try and bring too much into the question at hand.

Sorry but I do not concur with you.  I think you two have a certain perspective that would prefer the scope of the answer to be kept very limited as it serves your beliefs.  I basically gave a full and rounded answer as to the problems that in taking AAS and PCT and how it relates to gynecomastia.  So my posts could not be more relevant.  

You guys may want to be cavalier with your advice but I am not going to do that and I am going to talk abouyt the whole picture and not just concentrate on one aspect of it which is convenient for you and the offering of shoddy advice.

This guy wasn't looking for someone to tell him whether or not he should take AAS or nolvadex or proviron or arimidex or any other drug. He's pretty much going to do it if he wants.

Of course he is going to do what he wants, but since when does presenting the whole picture, since when does full and frank information hinder the individual?

It doesn’t matter what the subject is, ignorance is not bliss, if you are a 15yr old kid and thinking about going on an alcoholic bender for the first time with your friends or whether you are a 60yr old looking at chemotherapy for bladder cancer, it is helpful knowing the cons as well as the pros…..it is always helpful to know the whole picture and what you are getting into.

I know your perspective guys, I know your agenda only too well, well now you know mine.  I am not going to apologise for doing a proper job and offering good advice something neither of you has managed to do!!!!!!

He was looking for some guidance in what to take and when to take. it.

And I was giving him the full picture, which he can choose to read or ignore, take on board or dismiss.  Where is the problem?

Oh I see, you don’t like the fact that I don’t agree with your crap advice or your agenda, well hard luck.  You have the right to your free speech on this forum, and I have the right to mine.

And grr, I personally wouldn't take nolvadex myself as it is just an estrogen blocker. Instead, I'd take something like Arimidex which inhibits aromatization altogether. No estrogen conversion no problem. And maybe you cannot tell without certainty Hypo that these medications will or will not help but I can speak from experience and many other bodybuilders I know out there who use AAS can also atest to having no problems EVER from using proper PCT.

First of all like our other pro-steroid abuse partner in bad advice crime-  in this thread you make
ASS-umptions.  I have been on arimidex for the past year and take testosterone every day as part of my TRT and I have regular pathology on these medications and I see regular pathology from other guys also on these medications and I have spoken to some of the top endocrinologists in the world regarding these medications.

Now are you really going to try and imply that I do not know first hand about arimidex?  

I know more about this subject matter and these medications that you full stop!

You say no estrogen conversion, no problem.  Really then you have never seen the rebound effect that can occur from incorrect dosing then (it is little known- far less well known that the rebound effect of anti estrogens that work via a differing mechanism).

Basically too high a dose of arimidex can/has been known in a number of men to have the polar opposite affect that is has in lower doses.  Instead of increasing LH and testosterone production at higher doses it has been known to suppress the HPTA and testosterone and create a relative estrogen imbalance by adversely affecting the testosterone to estrogen ratio.  Admittedly this is rare however if you are one of the people it happens to you will not take comfort from the fact that you were unfortunate.

What I can tell you is a far greater problem and very common with arimidex is lowering estradiol too much.  This very often happens and when it does you suffer from fatigue, bone pain, hot flushes, lowered libido and erection problems and sometimes it throws thyroid function out.  I have seen this happen with dozens and dozens of men, so don’t try and tell me that you know what you are talking about here because frankly you don’t know very much at all.

Also when you talk about bodybuilders that have done AAS and PCT and have had no problem at all, I would say yes you are right (shock horror) and on the very same AAS and PCT other men will develop gynecomastia- hence excuse my French “the complete fucking relevance” of my posts that referred to genetics.

The guy who has a very similar perspective to you said

Unfortunately i'm a living testament to even with the best intentions and getting everything 'technically' as it's supposed to be and in the right dosages. Yes hypo is right they don't always work. Genetics plays a huge factor.

Again highlighting (one again please excuse my French) “the fucking complete relevance of my posts”.  One out of two of you has been screwed over by genetics and so AAS and PCT didn’t work.  Also I do wonder a little what brings you here, did your plans not going according to plan either?

Ok maybe I am onto something with my reference to yourself maybe I am not, but certainly one out of two of you is a living embodiment of the problems I have highlighted.

You talk about guys who get it right with AAS and PCT, what should we do celebrate the fact that they got lucky with their genetics, because given we known that genetics plays a huge part it wasn’t anything clever that prevented them from getting gynecomastia, it wasn’t their knowledge that afforded them protection, it was luck plain and simple.  They took the appropriate steps that they could take to limit the problem and then they rolled the dice.  I’m not going to praise guys who got lucky anymore than I am going to criticize guys that got unlucky.

You want to talk to an expert on this matter? Talk to Chad Nicholls. He'll blow your knowledge right out of the fucking water. See, my knowledge isn't backed up by books and hypothetical or scientific studies. Mine is backed up from personal trial and error and others (100's and 100's of others I know) who can also back it up with 20 years experience using these drugs.

You can tell anyone you want to come on this site and challenge what I say, I don’t fear talking to anyone.  Your knowledge is trial and error, almost certainly with no pathology. But you want to take a pop at endocrinology- the very system that governs how your body works and responds to these drugs.  You sound like a million other AAS users I have heard over the years that thinks they know something when in fact they have spent far too much time considering various substances but spent far too little time learning and understating the endocrine system into which you are putting them.  I have been on Andractim, HCG, Tamoxifen, testosterone, arimidex etc etc and I have been on them every single day.  I have lived with these medications daily at one point or another in my treatment for hypogonadism, and I have had regular pathology and I know what is happening on a pathology level with these meds.  I have also talked almost every day to dozens of guys with hypogonadism who are again on these meds every day and I have seen their pathology results again and again and again.  I have spoken with top endocrinologists regarding the effects of said medications based on their first hand research and what they have seen in thousands of patients.  I have read the detailed works and studies of some of the top endocrinologists in the world and an accumulation of hundrends of years worth of patients studies.  The collective experience of myself and fellow hypogonadal men who are on these medications would account for hundreds of years.

Don’t try to tell me that I don’t know the picture first hand, I know the picture first hand/subjectively and I know the picture objectively and from many differing perspectives.  You have failed miserably to support your points in this thread so you  shout things like your know nothing compared to X,Y,Z.  That is akin to going to get your big brother isn’t it?    Well like a child in the playground might be heard to say- go fucking get your big brother, go get who you like I’ll be here.

Maybe there is a small margin of error in who will and won't get it regardless of using these drugs but the error percentage will favor those who are not genetically predisposed to conditions causing gyne.

First of all that statement is unsubstantiated and you have no statistical evidence as to the percentage of those who taking AAS and PCT who will not get gynecomastia as opposed to those who will and no means of ascertaining or differentiating between why people have got gynecomastia and why people have not.

Secondly and more importantly, so what if you were right it wouldn’t mean diddly squat.  You see most people wont know if they were predisposed to gynecomastia prior to taking AAS and PCT.  So it is a roll of the dice, irrespective of how you would wish to paint it.

They will favor those who are more susceptible to getting it only from means like AAS. In which case, taking proper PCT will surely work.

Where are you going?  Look I agree that PCT is a must for those taking AAS (i'm against self medication but once you are on AAS then you might as well go the whole hgog and at least try and prevent one of its nastier side effects) as it does lesson the chances of gynecomastia.  However it mustn’t surely work at all, that is the whole point that as soon as you get into talking AAS and PCT you are opening yourself up to the risk of developing gynecomatia, you are rolling the dice and hoping your genetics aren’t bad, that is even if you get everything spot on.  Grr mentioned the proliferation of fake drugs on the market.  That is one of a multitude of way that you plans could go breasts up even without bad genetics.  If you took an aromatasing steroid and then took PCT which was a fake and not what it claimed to be or not in the right dosage then you can end up with gynecomastia.

The fact of the matter is the endocrine system is far more delicate and sophisticated that you can get your head round and you need to get everything right and get lucky to 100% prevent gynecomastia.  If you have not got gynecomastia in the past from AAS irrespective of PCT then they are a very lucky man, because you certainly don’t know what you are doing.

I developed my gyno only during the time that I didn't take proper PCT because it wasn't easily accessible to me. I dared to continue on in bodybuilding and AAS without it for a brief time. When I came off my cycles for a year or so, I developed gyno. That is my fault. But I can tell you that for 12 years prior, I had no problems while using Nolvadex/arimidex/Hcg/Clomid or any other PCT drugs.

I made comments prior to getting down to this part of your mail and now we see something quite interesting come out.  

I’ll give you a FACT my friend.

You and Grrr are both offering advice in this thread on AAS and PCT, yet both of you have developed gynecomastia through taking ASS.  Now forget about the excuses or trying to reason away the facts.  The bottom line is both of you have done ASS and both of you developed gynecomastia.

This guy doesn’t want gynecomastia, do you not think you are perhaps a little unqualified to hand out advice since you have both fallen foul of AAS?

I’ll give you another fact.  If you don’t take AAS then you wont become a statistic, you wont become another man who develops gynecomastia because of the use of steroids that are not required.  If you don’t take AAS then you simply wont get gynecomastia from them and you wont turn up in a fertility clinic in 10 years time (as many AAS or former AAS users do) and you wont end up with hypogonadism for pituitary or testicular failure as a minority of men taking AAS do who I have spoken with on this very site.

You talk about having no problem at all taking AAS with PCT that the only problem you had was in not taking PCT.  Well should we pin a bloody medal on you and congratulate you on the fact that you were slightly luckier in the genetics department that Grrr or a shit load of other men?

So you’re a little luckier in that regard, well done count your lucky stars and while you’re at it stop handing out crap advice.

If you don't want the possibility of developing gynecomastia do not self medicate AAS and that way you wont end up like Grrr or flex1appeal.

Although they would like and have tried to paint me out as a Philistine an ignoramous remember not one credible medical authority or organisation on this plaent agree with them, they all concur with me that it is best not to self medicate AAS.  If you doubt this walk into any hospital you can find and try and find a single doctor of any description who will concur with what they have to say- I promise you, you wont find one!


I am out of this thread now so any further remarks you make in my direction will be wasted.  You can have the last word I have said everything I have need to say here.

[flex1appeal]

Bro, genetics aside, ANYONE is suceptible to gyne. Those with genetic predisposition having the greater risk. Someone not genetically predisposed to gyne more than likely would only get it from some drug as a side effect such as AAS. Therefore, proper (emphasis proper) PCT can and does work period. Argue all you want with your scientific approach. I understand the condition you deal with and have for a long time. I understand you know your shit. But what you say, though sound on the books, is not 100% correct. Sorry, by I do not concur so we'll have to agree to disagree. No hard feelings here for you not agreeing with me.

[Grrrrr]

Actually it's almost funny because hypo just dosen't seem capable of extracting information from peoples posts here, he takes a point made, distorts it ever so slightly (usually through mis-interpretation and assumptions) and turns it into a flame. EVERY TIME without fail.

It's kind of sad really.

Just for the record i'm pretty much anti steroid. But I tried not to convey that in my post, I think impartial advice is always the best. It's so easy to just scream "NO NO NO" and quote reams of statistical data, but really how helpful is that to the person asking for info? Anyway as for roids, been there done that, made the odd mistake along the way and nowadays my stance would be they are probably best avoided.

I don't think having made mistakes negates anyone's ability to learn from them, or takes away any credibility. I say I made a mistake, got it wrong and instantly you jump on that fact to discredit me. And the same to flex. Pity you.

The reality is though people will always use roids. So I haven't preached any anti-roid info, i've just given a little background on the substances mentioned.

I actually agree with flex on the tamoxifen. I didn't bring it into the debate, but something that is well worth mentioning is that it's actually a very toxic substance. (Just google that before arguing) then feel free to debate.

Now for those that are going to take roids, but don't want gyne. Firstly understand one very important thing. A steroid is not just a steroid. Their effects vary hugely on the endocrine system.

If you really do want to use roids. Without risking gyne (or reducing the risk to an incredibly low rate) then use Primobalon. You won't get massive gains, but you will get solid more permanent gains if you get your diet and training etc spot on.

That's if you can stomach an IM injection. Now of course there isn't a Dr on the planet that would reccomend taking this, pretty much for legal reasons. And i'm NOT reccomending taking it either. I'm just saying if your going to use roids, then your gyne risks are virtually nil with Primo. And it's incredibly clean and non toxic.

Avoid the C17 alpha alkalyted orals, yes they work extremely well but they can cause many side effects and are basically pretty toxic.

Personally I would totally not use 'pro-hormone' supplements. The way they work can cause some significant gyne risks. Whilst still a steroid, Primobalon is actually a heck of a lot safer, and the muscular gains are far more. And absolutely no need to bother with PCT.

No im not advocating anything here. I'm not disclaiming myself either. I'm saying pro-hormone sups can so often be a knightmare. PCT can be a lottery. (Flex also made a very good point when he said sometimes the stuff you need can sometimes not be available). Anyway if your going to take something then use Primobalon.

If as hypo says "I am out of this thread now" Well, i'll eat my hat.

Grrr

[Grrrrr]

I'll give the argumentative little prick a few days before I start on the hat  

I hate these internet pu33ies who use forums because their anonymous. People like hypo wouldn't say boo to a goose in actual person.

Yeah yeah come round and say hi sometime, maybe I could get your nads working with a swift kick to the groin...

http://s115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/GrrrGrrr/?action=view&current=Picture068.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1

Grrrr

[flex1appeal]

I'll give the argumentative little prick a few days before I start on the hat  

I hate these internet pu33ies who use forums because their anonymous. People like hypo wouldn't say boo to a goose in actual person.

Yeah yeah come round and say hi sometime, maybe I could get your nads working with a swift kick to the groin...

http://s115.photobucket.com/albums/n299/GrrrGrrr/?action=view&current=Picture068.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch1

Grrrr

Grrr....I like you bro. You are a funny guy. LOL....But don't waste you energy. No matter what the word is he'll have the last of it. LOL