"Marijuana Induced Gyno"

[tigerjuice30]

I smoked all throughout college and developed gyno pretty bad.  I was wondering if there are any non-surgical treatments that could help me.

[Paa_Paw]

There are many products, officially listed as herbal suppliments, which claim to get rid of Gynecomastia.

They are somewhat like "the Easter Bunny" and "the Tooth Fairy" in that we would like to believe in them but in reality we know better.

The simple truth is that there is no magic pill that will get rid of Gynecomastia.

There are a lot of scams that can reduce your wallet, but not your breasts.

[whoknows]

well although there really is nothing 100% effective there have been studies put out treating gynecomastia with (some pretty good results):

letrozole
arimidex
tamoxifen
raloxifene

(not a good idea to self dose probably..)

[Paa_Paw]

The drugs cited are all well known to anyone who has been following these pages for very long.

None should be used without competent medical supervision. In many cases this would include regular lab tests as well.

When used in very carefully selected cases which have not persisted too long they have a few successes to their credit. Not as clinically verified cases very often but mostly as cases unverified or supported by mostly anecdotal evidence.

The few studies undertaken so far have not had sufficient subjects in a double blind situation to be conclusive.

There have been cases where a person was starting to experience breast tenderness and enlargement as a reaction to a prescription drug. When the drug was withdrawn early enough the Gynecomastia regressed without treatment or with the aid of one of the above listed drugs. Again though the results are only anecdotal at best because of a lack of suffidient unbiased statistical data.

In short, I stand by what I previously said to whit "there is no Magic Pill." Truly, I too wish that there was such a thing.

[moobius]

well although there really is nothing 100% effective there have been studies put out treating gynecomastia with (some pretty good results):

letrozole
arimidex
tamoxifen
raloxifene

(not a good idea to self dose probably..)

there is a very specific window in which these drugs would be effective... for 99.99% of the people who've come to this site, that window is closed. even though you threw in the little disclaimer at the bottom, suggesting these to someone who claims to have already developed a pretty bad case of gyne not only illustrates a fundamental lack of understanding on your part of what these drugs are used for/capable of, but it also creates false hope for yet another gyne sufferer that there is a solution other than surgery...

people come to this site looking for support and solutions... even with good intentions, bad information helps no one.

[moobius]

I smoked all throughout college and developed gyno pretty bad.  I was wondering if there are any non-surgical treatments that could help me.

MJ induced gynecomastia is a myth. (studies have been posted on this board showing such if you care to look.)

as for non-surgical treatments: sorry, there are none.

[whoknows]

well although there really is nothing 100% effective there have been studies put out treating gynecomastia with (some pretty good results):

letrozole
arimidex
tamoxifen
raloxifene

(not a good idea to self dose probably..)

there is a very specific window in which these drugs would be effective... for 99.99% of the people who've come to this site, that window is closed. even though you threw in the little disclaimer at the bottom, suggesting these to someone who claims to have already developed a pretty bad case of gyne not only illustrates a fundamental lack of understanding on your part of what these drugs are used for/capable of, but it also creates false hope for yet another gyne sufferer that there is a solution other than surgery...

people come to this site looking for support and solutions... even with good intentions, bad information helps no one.

I know what your saying. Yet I dont believe it at the same time.. because I'm able to change mine within a few days and I've had it for a long time - with just OTC stuff. Perhaps you haven't seen the academic studies on these drugs? Hows it bad information if an ACADEMIC SOURCE has proven that it has reduced and in SOME cases actually destroyed it altogether?

My main point was go see an endo -- your likely to go see one anyways so it doesn't come back after surgery

and I'm pretty sure 99% of the people who come to this site would still LIKE to try something like a SERM/strong AI before going to surgery immediately.

[whoknows]

I smoked all throughout college and developed gyno pretty bad.  I was wondering if there are any non-surgical treatments that could help me.

MJ induced gynecomastia is a myth. (studies have been posted on this board showing such if you care to look.)

as for non-surgical treatments: sorry, there are none.

Theres studies supporting it and theres studies saying it doesnt, heres one that does

Marijuana extracts possess the effects like the endocrine disrupting chemicals.

The progesterone 17alpha-hydroxylase activity, which is one of the steroidogenic enzymes in rat testis microsomes, was significantly inhibited by crude marijuana extracts from Delta(9)-tetrahydrocannabinolic acid (THCA)- and cannabidiolic acid (CBDA)-strains. Delta(9)-Tetrahydrocannabinol, cannabidiol and cannabinol also inhibited the enzymatic activity with relatively higher concentration (100-1000 microM). Testosterone 6beta- and 16alpha-hydroxylase activities together with androstenedione formation from testosterone in rat liver microsomes were also significantly inhibited by the crude marijuana extracts and the cannabinoids. Crude marijuana extracts (1 and 10 microg/ml) of THCA strain stimulated the proliferation of MCF-7 cells, although the purified cannabinoids (THC, CBD and CBN) did not show significant effects, such as the extract at the concentration of 0.01-1000 nM. These results indicate that there are some metabolic interactions between cannabinoid and steroid metabolism and that the constituents showing estrogen-like activity exist in marijuana.

and..

Plasma hormones and THC were measured before and after each smoking session. Plasma LH was significantly depressed and cortisol was significantly elevated after smoking marijuana.

We both know what LH does

moar..

[Review and update: marijuana and reproduction]

Studies on experimental animals have indicated that THC can cause a decline in the pituitary hormones follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, and prolactin, and in the steroids progesterone, estrogen, and androgens. Human studies have shown that chronic users have decreased levels of serum testosterone.

[moobius]

sources?


here's a few to check out:
http://www.gynecomastia.org/smf/index.php?topic=10853.msg76657#msg76657

[whoknows]

sources?


here's a few to check out:
http://www.gynecomastia.org/smf/index.php?topic=10853.msg76657#msg76657

they're all from medline, found them yesterday

but you fail to address what I said before, how is an academic source bad information exactly?

[moobius]

you're trying to draw me into a pissing match and i don't have the time for that...  to answer your question it would depend on the credibility of the source, the legitimacy of the study and whether or not proper steps were taken to isolate the proper variables and compare the results to a true control group.  instead of blathering on about these studies, please post the studies as i'd love to see them...

the OP asked if there were nonsurgical treatments for gyne to which you replied with a list of powerful anti-E's. please post these ACADEMIC STUDIES you are referring to that may be of use to the OP and the rest of us on the board. however, the collective anecdotal evidence of this board seems to support that these medications CAN cause the symptoms associated with gyne to TEMPORARILY subside (puffiness, swelling, etc) but upon sessation of medication these symptoms return.

these are not flinstone vitamins and taking them haphazardly can cause unecessary side effects. if the results are temporary, then suggesting this as a true alternative to surgery again, only creates false hope for yet another gyne sufferer...

[whoknows]

you're trying to draw me into a pissing match and i don't have the time for that...  to answer your question it would depend on the credibility of the source, the legitimacy of the study and whether or not proper steps were taken to isolate the proper variables and compare the results to a true control group.  instead of blathering on about these studies, please post the studies as i'd love to see them...

the OP asked if there were nonsurgical treatments for gyne to which you replied with a list of powerful anti-E's. please post these ACADEMIC STUDIES you are referring to that may be of use to the OP and the rest of us on the board. however, the collective anecdotal evidence of this board seems to support that these medications CAN cause the symptoms associated with gyne to TEMPORARILY subside (puffiness, swelling, etc) but upon sessation of medication these symptoms return.

these are not flinstone vitamins and taking them haphazardly can cause unecessary side effects. if the results are temporary, then suggesting this as a true alternative to surgery again, only creates false hope for yet another gyne sufferer...

I have a few here. And to say "the legitness of the studies" is retarded, you seem to forget these are ACADEMIC JOURNALS. random average joes CANNOT get published or go NEAR these things. That gives credibility all by itself. But here.

J Pediatr. 2004 Jul;145(1):71-6. Related Articles, Links
Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia.

Lawrence SE, Faught KA, Vethamuthu J, Lawson ML.

Department of Pediatrics, University of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. slawrence@cheo.on.ca

OBJECTIVES: To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifen in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia. STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene). RESULTS: Mean (SD) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients. CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.

PMID: 15238910 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]------------------------------------------- Breast. 2004 Feb;13(1):61-5. Related Articles, Links
Management of physiological gynaecomastia with tamoxifen.

Khan HN, Rampaul R, Blamey RW.

Professorial Unit of Surgery, Department of Surgery, Nottingham City Hospital, Nottingham NG5 1PB, UK. hamimi@dsl.pipex.com

AIMS: We aimed to confirm suggestions that tamoxifen therapy alone may resolve physiological gynaecomastia. METHODS: A prospective audit of the outcome of tamoxifen routinely given to men with physiological gynaecomastia was carried out at Nottingham. Men referred with gynaecomastia had clinical signs recorded, e.g., type (diffuse 'fatty' or retro-areolar 'lump'), size and possible aetiology. They were offered oral tamoxifen 20mg once daily for 6-12 weeks. On follow-up patients were assessed for complete resolution (CR), partial resolution where patient is satisfied with outcome (PR) or no resolution (NR). Success was either CR or PR. RESULTS: Thirty-six men accepted tamoxifen for physiological gynaecomastia. Median age was 31 (range 18-64). Tenderness was present in 25 (71%) cases. Sixteen men (45%) had 'fatty' gynaecomastia and 20 had 'lump' gynaecomastia. Tamoxifen resolved the mass in 30 patients (83.3%; CR=22, PR=8) and tenderness in 21 cases (84%; CR=0, PR=0). Lump gynaecomastia was more responsive to tamoxifen than the fatty type (100% vs. 62.5%; P=0.0041). CONCLUSIONS: Oral tamoxifen is an effective treatment for physiological gynaecomastia, especially for the lump type.

Publication Types:

    * Clinical Trial

-----------------------------------------

Tamoxifen treatment for pubertal gynecomastia.

Derman O, Kanbur NO, Kutluk T.

Section of Adolescent Medicine, Department of Pediatrics, Hacettepe University Faculty of Medicine, 06100 Ankara-Turkey. drderman@hotmail.com

We evaluated the efficacy of the tamoxifen treatment in 37 patients with pubertal gynecomastia. All had distinct, easily palpable breast swellings with a diameter of over three cm. Pain, tenderness, and swelling associated with gynecomastia were reported by six patients. Eight of the patients were obese. One patient also suffered from varicocele. Pain and size reduction was seen in all patients with tamoxifen treatment. No long-term side effects of tamoxifen were observed. The dose of tamoxifen was increased in three patients due to poor response. Two of the treatment group had recurrence problem at follow-up. We did not need to refer any patient to surgery. Tamoxifen treatment is relatively non-toxic, may be beneficial and we think it should be considered for pubertal gynecomastia.

PMID: 14719418 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

------------------------------------------
Expert Opin Investig Drugs. 2003 Mar;12(3):337-51. Related Articles, Links
The therapeutic potential of aromatase inhibitors.

Miller WR, Jackson J.

University of Edinburgh, Edinburgh Breast Unit Research Group, Paderewski Building, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, EH4 2XU, UK. w.r.miller@ed.ac.uk

The third generation aromatase inhibitors are both remarkably potent and specific endocrine agents inhibiting aromatase activity and reducing circulating oestrogen levels in postmenopausal women to levels never previously seen. Their therapeutic potential is consequently much greater than the earlier prototype drugs. Their excellent side-effect profile also allows for potential wider indications in the treatment of oestrogen-related diseases, including breast cancer. It still remains to determine whether their potent endocrine effects translate into increased therapeutic benefit. In advanced breast cancer, aromatase inhibitors have been shown to have improved efficacy and toxicity profiles when compared with progestins, aminoglutethimide and tamoxifen. Aromatase inhibitors have also been used in the neoadjuvant setting, where they have been shown to achieve higher response rates than tamoxifen and to be more successful at downstaging tumours. Early results comparing an aromatase inhibitor with tamoxifen in the adjuvant setting in early breast cancer show anastrozole to be superior to tamoxifen in terms of both disease-free survival and a lower incidence of new contralateral tumours. There was also a more favourable side-effect profile, which has implications for potential future prophylactic treatment. Additionally, since aromatase inhibitors have different mechanisms of action, unlike antioestrogens, they may be particularly useful as chemopreventive agents if oestrogens are themselves genotoxic. Aromatase inhibitors have been used to date almost exclusively in postmenopausal women. The potential of combining them with luteinising hormone-releasing hormone analogues allows the possibility of treating premenopausal women with either oestrogen receptor-positive breast cancer or benign conditions such as cyclical breast pain, fibroadenomata, recurrent cystic disease or endometriosis. There is also the potential for their use in men with conditions such as gynaecomastia or prostate cancer. These new generation aromatase inhibitors may well have an increasing role in the future management of a number of conditions in addition to breast cancer.

Publication Types:

    * Review
    * Review, Tutorial

PMID: 12605559 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] -------------------------------------------


Gynecomastia. A bothersome but readily treatable problem.

Jacobs MB.

Division of General Internal Medicine, Stanford University School of Medicine, CA 94305-5320.

Although breast enlargement in boys and men can cause both psychological and physical distress, the disorder is rarely serious and is readily treatable. Several factors can lead to the estrogenic excess that causes growth of breast tissue. Dr Jacobs describes a patient with gynecomastia related to cirrhosis of the liver who responded promptly to a brief course of tamoxifen citrate therapy.

Publication Types:

    * Case Reports

------------------------------------------


[treatment of marked gynecomastia in puberty with tamoxifen]

[Article in German]

Konig R, Schonberger W, Neumann P, Benes P, Grimm W.

Kinderklinik, Universitat Mainz.

Based on the good results of another author 10 boys with marked pubertal gynecomastia were treated with the antioestrogen Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) at a dose of 20-40 mg/d orally for 2-12 months. In most cases the gynecomastia decreased totally, only two patients experienced palpable subareolar glandular tissue at the end of therapy. Side effects were not noted. During therapy levels of estradiol and testosteron increased, with a more pronounced elevation of estradiol. Basal values of LH and FSH remained nearly unchanged, but LH showed an increased response to LH-RH, which could be explained by the antioestrogenic effect of Tamoxifen at the hypothalamic level. The reduction of breast size in spite of increased estradiol levels on the other hand, suggests that the mean therapeutic effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue.

PMID: 3123765 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-----------------------------------------

Clin Ther. 1987;9(5):483-7. Related Articles, Links
Idiopathic gynecomastia treated with tamoxifen: a preliminary report.

Alagaratnam TT.

Department of Surgery, Queen Mary Hospital, University of Hong Kong.

Sixty-one Chinese men with idiopathic gynecomastia were treated with 40 mg of tamoxifen daily for one of four months (median, two months). Eighty percent had complete regression of their breast swelling. No long-term side effects of tamoxifen were observed over a median follow-up period of 36 months.

PMID: 3664552 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] ----------------------------------------

Metabolism. 1986 Aug;35(:705-8. Related Articles, Links
Treatment of gynecomastia with tamoxifen: a double-blind crossover study.

Parker LN, Gray DR, Lai MK, Levin ER.

Benign asymptomatic or painful enlargement of the male breast is a common problem, postulated to be due to an increased estrogen/testosterone ration or due to increased estrogenic or decreased androgenic stimulation via estrogen or androgen receptor interactions. Treatment at present consists of analgesic medication or surgery. However, treatment directed against the preponderance of estrogenic stimulation would seem to represent a more specific form of therapy. In the present double-blind crossover study, one-month courses of a placebo or the antiestrogen tamoxifen (10 mg given orally bid) were compared in random order. Seven of ten patients experienced a decrease in the size of their gynecomastia due to tamoxifen (P less than 0.005). Overall, the decrease for gynecomastia for the whole group was significant (P less than 0.01). There was no beneficial effect of placebo (P greater than 0.1). Additionally, all four patients with painful gynecomastia experienced symptomatic relief. There was no toxicity. The reduction of breast size was partial and may indicate the need for a longer course of therapy. A followup examination was performed in eight out of ten patients nine months to one year after discontinuing placebo and tamoxifen. There were no significant changes from the end of the initial study period except for one tamoxifen responder who developed a recurrence of breast tenderness after six months, and one nonresponder who demonstrated an increase in breast size and a new onset of tenderness after ten months. Therefore, antiestrogenic treatment with tamoxifen may represent a safe and effective mode of treatment for selected cases of cosmetically disturbing or painful gynecomastia.

Publication Types:

    * Clinical Trial
    * Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 3526085 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] -------------------------------------------

[moobius]

those studies are laughable...  they fail to mention anything about what happened AFTER the study, when the nolvadex was stopped??? Of course the symptoms subside while on the medication, i've already stated this and anyone on this site who's used those medicines can attest to that fact.    i'd wager to say that post 'study', most saw symtoms return.

and come on, seriously? 80%+ success rate for treating gynecomastia with tamoxifen -- get real. perhaps we should have a poll thread put up of all the guys who've tried and had any long term success with tamoxifen. my bet would be that far fewer than 80% have seen the type of success described in those 'studies' with medication alone. (nolva, arimidex, etc, in combo, whatever)



and the fact that there were published in Academic Journals HARDLY lends credibility to them on that fact alone.  if you really belive that then i've got some bridges you may be interested in...

[moobius]

Marijuana extracts possess the effects like the endocrine disrupting chemicals.

The progesterone 17alpha-hydroxylase activity, which is one of the steroidogenic enzymes in rat testis microsomes, was significantly inhibited by crude marijuana extracts from Delta(9)-tetrahydrocannabinolic acid (THCA)- and cannabidiolic acid (CBDA)-strains. Delta(9)-Tetrahydrocannabinol, cannabidiol and cannabinol also inhibited the enzymatic activity with relatively higher concentration (100-1000 microM). Testosterone 6beta- and 16alpha-hydroxylase activities together with androstenedione formation from testosterone in rat liver microsomes were also significantly inhibited by the crude marijuana extracts and the cannabinoids. Crude marijuana extracts (1 and 10 microg/ml) of THCA strain stimulated the proliferation of MCF-7 cells, although the purified cannabinoids (THC, CBD and CBN) did not show significant effects, such as the extract at the concentration of 0.01-1000 nM. These results indicate that there are some metabolic interactions between cannabinoid and steroid metabolism and that the constituents showing estrogen-like activity exist in marijuana.

and..

[treatment of marked gynecomastia in puberty with tamoxifen]
[Article in German]
Konig R, Schonberger W, Neumann P, Benes P, Grimm W.

Kinderklinik, Universitat Mainz.

Based on the good results of another author 10 boys with marked pubertal gynecomastia were treated with the antioestrogen Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) at a dose of 20-40 mg/d orally for 2-12 months. In most cases the gynecomastia decreased totally, only two patients experienced palpable subareolar glandular tissue at the end of therapy. Side effects were not noted. During therapy levels of estradiol and testosteron increased, with a more pronounced elevation of estradiol. Basal values of LH and FSH remained nearly unchanged, but LH showed an increased response to LH-RH, which could be explained by the antioestrogenic effect of Tamoxifen at the hypothalamic level. The reduction of breast size in spite of increased estradiol levels on the other hand, suggests that the mean therapeutic effect of tamoxifen is through estrogen receptor blockade of breast tissue.

PMID: 3123765 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-----------------------------------------

so you blame MJ for having 'estrogen-like' activity exhibited as the result of all gynecomastia, yet you hail nolvadex as the cure for it when nolvadex absolutely positively elevates Estradiol..... do you even read these articles and understand what they say or are you just skimming headlines?

[whoknows]

so you blame MJ for having 'estrogen-like' activity exhibited as the result of all gynecomastia, yet you hail nolvadex as the cure for it when nolvadex absolutely positively elevates Estradiol..... do you even read these articles and understand what they say or are you just skimming headlines?

I'm not blaming MJ for anything, but im saying you can't rule out 100% that it doesn't do SOMETHING with hormones and estradiol in general. I'm not hailing Nolvadex either, but I'm saying its something to at least try based on the studies that are present. Obviously the elevation in estradiol is irrelevant if in some cases it makes gyno disappear.

My main point is stop being SO "surgery or nothing" because based on these studies it seems like theres something good that comes out of tamoxifen. And its not just 1 study saying this, its many. But yes, surgery is the only 100% way out. And if you would like to write off academic journals/studies as not credible sources -- well show me something more credible then than an academic journal.