Mind Control

[jc71]

Occasionally, I get wicked quad and inner thigh cramps. Excruciating pain at times . After reading this thread in its early stages, I had a two cramps. Both times I said to myself, "There's no cramp, there's no cramp." Both times the cramp went away before it got real painful. D@mn, maybe this mind control stuff really works!  

John.

Would you look at the size of those above posts?

My long winded, big breasted brethren, you guys can really belt out a post.  

It's like two heavyweights pounding the shit out of each other.  

Pure entertainment.  Keep it up gents.

I'm on hypo's side.  I trying to prove my loyalty.  

[hypo]

I am on the side of science, substantiating a case with sufficient material evidence and proof.

Mind control has never been proven, therefore I do not believe in its existence.

And it is perfectly reasonable to say that Stephen Hawking or Einstein etc would treat this exactly the same way.

If you call me an idiot or sneer at me, you DO sneer at them.

Graham believes that mind control exists despite the fact that it is totally unproven.

The fact is there has never been even one proven case in the world- ever.

Graham believes in subjective impressions like testimonials which are a world away from material evidence or proof.

He believes in mind control despite there being no proof, he takes it on faith.

Do not say you don't Graham!!!

That is what you are doing when the case for is totally unproven.

You might as well believe in ghosts, witch doctors or voodoo, because like mind control the existence of the former and the ability of the latter two have also never been proven.

Like you say you cannot generally prove a negative, I agree.  

And you are trying to use this point to force my hand and the whole debate in your direction.

But if you take that literally then any bizarre claims or superstitions have to be taken seriously and in practical terms we all know this to be totally unreasonable.

That is why the onus of the existence of phenomena is placed firmly on those that claim its existence.

The way Graham is arguing is too say you cannot prove a negative and therefore although I cannot prove something exists, you cannot prove it does not exist.

Like I said whilst in literal terms this is correct, it is simply not the way the world works and to try and pretend it does is quite frankly trying my patience.

In practical terms if you cannot prove something exists and there is not theoretically/legitimate scientific reasons for supposing why something should exist, it is taken NOT to exist.

Your claims Graham are no different to saying;

Voodoo is real and works

Ghosts exist

Fortune tellers are real and can tell the future

Astrology works

You argue that there is probably data that shows that the inside of Jupiter is not a Taco.

Listen to what you sound like!!!

Of course the inside of Jupiter in not made form a Taco!!!!

But listen to how stupid you sound having to argue that there is probably data that exists that shows my claims to be untrue

When I try and place the burdon of proof in the court of the person that is not forwarding the case-

It just bastardizes all logic and reason.

If I say the inside of Jupiter is a Taco then the onus IS firmly on me to provide evidence that this is so.

Given I cannot do this my claims can be dismissed!!!

Just as your can regarding mind control

My false and ridiculous claim was just to show where you end up as soon as you think you can make claims without verifying them with substantial material evidence that proves the case.  

I would be interested how you draw a distinction between the existence of mind control, voodoo, witch doctors abilities, ghosts, fortune teller’s powers, the workings of astrology etc

Given that they are all in the same boat of supposedly existing in some peoples eyes but are all unsubstantiated and unproven in terms of there existence.


Bite the bullet- your goose is cooked

[hypo]

I applaud you for your attempt to extricate yourself from you previous position and move the goalposts.

Unfortunately for you I am not fooled by such artifice.

Whilst you did make a couple of references to the idea of considering mind control as a placebo effect, that was not the basis of your argument in this debate.

We both know it and so does anyone with half a brain reading this thread.

Nice try though

Mind control is not the placebo effect (the later being well documented and real).

Find me medical articles that relate to mind control

More specifically given that you have claimed it possible that mind control could shrink gynecomastia provide me with articles that relate to such said happenings.

Being kind, I’ll allow you the ludicrous shifting goalposts, for a moment (no longer than that, I’m not that kind:)

Show me a single study that shows that the placebo effect can work in place of a cosmetic procedure in actually affecting a visible change.

A bit on the placebo effect.....

The placebo effect relates to people feeling better because they think they have been given medicine or at least something that affects them positively,- it relates to power of psychology.

For instance, if you give most people clear cola to drink, they think they are drinking lemonade at least at first, until they are informed that they are drinking cola, they are fooled by their own preconceptions.

This is quite a good example of how psychology can play a part in how an individual feels even with a sense as strong as taste.

The classic example of the placebo effect is;

You have a headache, I give you a tablet that contains nothing but sugar and you feel relief from the headache for no other reason than the fact that you assume you should feel better and have a more positive outlook (of course this only ever happens in a percentage of cases, as often you will still complain of having the same darn headache).

A problem with the placebo effect is, like fooling someone with clear cola it almost always only lasts for shortened periods of time.

In the case of Testosterone deficiency, patients often feel super well on inappropriately low amounts of medication, the placebo effect enhances their well-being as they are often elated or relieved to finally be on treatment.  After a few days or weeks that wares off, at which point if they are not on the right dose of medication it becomes abundantly clear.

Once the brain realizes that something isn’t quite right, the placebo effect usually goes right out of the window and like I say it relates to psychological state of mind.

Here is where your problem is, even when I allow you to try and pretend you have been arguing about the placebo effect;

You are not claiming anything that relates to well being.

You are not relating to the placebo effect in any way because you are talking about how an individual can with the power of thought alter the biological composition of their body and reduce glandular mass in their chest.

Check mate?

[hypo]

You have given up the Ghost of trying to debate the issue any further, (being in a tight corner) and have now opted for a number of cheap tactics;

A) to go personal and try and attack the character of the person you are debating with in order to change the focus and make this about personal matters.

B) To try and take the moral high ground by criticizing the manner in which the other person (namely me) has conducted themselves (any fool can burn a barn, any fool can go negative).

Both tactics are underhand and a clear attempt to put me on the back foot so that in some way I have to explain myself or have to focus on something other than the debate in hand-

You have lost the argument/debate on this subject matter, miserably so and I do not have to explain myself.

Though I will quote your post as usual, as I would not wish to be accused of only reading my own post would I

Graham Quote
It has become obvious to me that throughout this whole thread, you have been paying attention to only your own posts.
Unquote

No I have quoted and responded to your posts in almost every single post I have made.

You can believe in mind control if you wish, that is your prerogative.

But when you bring your thoughts and claims to a wider audience for the purpose of discussion and debate, then you cannot complain when people pass their views and examine your thoughts and claims.

I have just laid out the reasons as to why I do not believe the claims of mind control can be taken seriously.

If you want to make that out as personal, well that seems a little sad to me but- ok, I guess I'll live with it.

But please do not try and turn the tables here, YOU have continually attacked me with personal insults because of my views, this is something I have not done to you.

vengeful, closed-minded, obtuse, arrogance were the words you attributed to me in the course of just one post.  

I could be wrong but I do not believe I have attacked you on a personal level once during this thread, but of course I am the one who is vengeful

Graham Quote
Someone please put Hypo to some good use in another thread now that he's back because he's definitely nothing but a troll here
Unquote

I see, so if I have opposing views on the matter, irrespective of how coherently I lay them out and how genuine they are- I am a troll.

So a troll must be defined as someone who strongly disagrees with your opinions.

So the Democrats are not opposition to the Republicans they are trolls that should go away

Interesting

By the way I wasn't involved in this discussion out of spite, I was in it because A) I strongly disagreed with your beliefs and thought there was no evidence to substantiate your claims that 'this' exists and B) because I found it startling that a man who is so negative about surgery, which has a proven 65% success rate in terms of getting rid of gynecomastia would support a means of removing the condition that has zero % proven success rate.

I wanted to get out of the debate a while ago because I started to find it rather dull, because I didn't think you were listening to much I had to say, but I wanted to leave the debate on the understanding that I was not doing so because you had proven your point and I was unable to answer.

As it was I found your lack of logic a little nauseating and so attempted to show why I believe mind control to be complete hogwash.

Something I have now done- darn well

Now I have explained myself which as I said earlier is something I do not have to do at all.

The debate is at an end.

P.S

And I was genuinely asking about your pictures on the site, obviously many people have posted their pics on the site including myself.  I just wondered what your case was like because it sounds similar to mine.

Did you really think I wanted to see them to make some capitol on them or to make fun?

That would be sick, I wanted to see them for the genuine reasons that anyone on this site wants to see pics that are similar to there own situation.

A pity you decided to throw that in my face when you could have at least been civil

[usernameX]

Kicking a member off a forum because a somewhat of an "important" member cant take any competition is no reason to ban someone. We are here to freely express things. Like Grahm said, if you cant keep an open mind then piss off. Dont judge other peoples ways because you choose not to beleive in it. My mother, aunt, and my moms boyfriends are all very spiritual individuals and beleive in all this. I personally cant see myself mediating but that doesnt mean I close the door to it.

You know Hypo, sometimes I get the feeling you only check into this forum to bust Grahm's balls.

[hypo]

Your points/arguments went by the wayside so you decided to get nasty.

The whole of your last post was just another personal broadside, nothing more nothing less.

A sure sign of someone who has given up all attempts to use reason, logic, articulation etc to show the validity of their thinking.

You said quote
I am usually civil until I am treated otherwise. Then, I give as good as I get.

But this is not true is it (like so much of what you say)?

Because I have NOT made a single personal remark about you in this thread, NOT one.  

Whereas you have now made dozens about me.

usernameX

Before accusing me of something get the facts straight will you.  There has only been one person throwing non stop abusive comments around in this thread and I think you will find that is not me.

I have posted in this subject because I had opinions on it, just as I have posted in other threads.  I have also made a lot of PMs but then again you never see that do you

What would you have me do censor myself in certain threads?

P.S

I find it hilarious that I have been told that my opinions about a wide variety of issues are highly dubious;

From a man who believes in 'mind control'.

And suggests that mind control can get rid of gynecomastia.

Most people in the real world would be peeing themselves about that one

Go and tell that to a gp, endocrinologist, plastic surgeon etc what you believe in Graham.

They will send you for a psychological assessment to see if you need to be sectioned on mental health grounds


I out of here- good bye!!!!!

[hypo]

Sorry can't resist.

So you think that you ARE getting rid of your gynecomastia with mind control.

You’re delusional!!!!

[Fr1dayGTA]

This website is full of bickering children.

[hypo]

It has been a long running and scathing debate about twaddle.

Perhaps you should offer something positive to the website instead of following our example.

I for my part am not going to be involved in matters of this irrelevance again.

[kelley]

sorry to bring up an old argument but just a couple things I need to say. One we use ten- fifthteen percent of our brains at ONE given moment, but we do use all of our brain, just not at the same time. Second Graham you said that you don't read books because mind control is different for everyone. I argee that meditation and thought are effective, and differently for everyone, but there are some very import texts out there that help you understand the working of reality and the mind and it would do you good to stop thinking you know everything pick one of these books up, if you are really serious of course. To Hypo in the western world there isn't proof the the mind can heal because western medicine heals simptoms not causes, if you do some research in the eastern world you will find such religions as hinduism and buddhaism do offer rich information on the concept of thought over reality, since there is only reality through our senses. Think of the old saying healthy mind, healthy body.
And to everyone who is thinking of mind control, yes I do believe mind control can help cure diseases but I promise you that no matter how much meditation you do you cannot wish away your finger or foot, and sadly no not even gyno, because it is a part of you, a virus and tissue aren't the same.

[kelley]

Graham I have read lots of your posts and sadly I'm a little disappointed at your response. You seem to be better and above making assumptions. I just want to have a debate. That said, Gyno isn't a universal problem, it is a cultural problem, something you make into a ordeal. And please stick too what is known, no one can have a real debate when they say things like it could or it might. And third HOW DARE YOU tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about when I mention Buddhaism or hinduism, I have studied both extensivly, and yes they both deal in part with mind over matter, in fact any intruduction book would tell you that much. Seriously you made a foolish remark.
In such religions it is possible to change the self but in order to do so one must break down there concept of reality, there is much more to mind control than being quiet and chanting or hoping things will change, but since I'm so stupid in such areas don't even listen. I actually did study up in mind control, although not for gyno but for a more personal and philosophical reason. Trust me books do contain knowledge, and if you are really intrested in such things then try opening one of these benefical books.  
I have never heard of anyone being able to meditate fat away, maybe it's because their meditating and not eating. But the reason I do not believe the body can change form from mind control is because the body is in the same reality as most human thought, the thought that is outside this reality is the lack of human thought, and yes that does come from eastern religion. The reason these wonderful religions aren't taken seriously is because of qwacks who claim it can be used for vanity reasons, you discredit the faith and the ideas with little knowledge and lack in willingness to learn.

I don't mean to get personal graham, but I do feel I need to defend myself when personally attacked, hope we can still have civil debates

[kelley]

Fair enough
your right you didn't discredit eastern religions, I just meant that people who talk about mind control and know nothing about it, do nothing to help validate it.

But you did put a handful of words in my mouth.
I'll make a deal with you, I'll be more careful if you are more careful.
and I didn't even mention surgery in this thread.

[kelley]

Graham
If your talking about manipulating reality, which I assume is where your body is, then yes we are talking about the same thing, your confusion makes me wonder if you really did study the basis of metaphysics, which is the study of reality and not ufos and witches for those who believe in the thrown around definition.