Is there hope? I think not...

[HopeExceedesMe]

... Not in this society we live in, anyway. Let me begin the story by exhibiting myself:
I'm a seventeen year old, I've always been chubby. I never really knew what Gynecomastia was until I lost all of my fat off (Well, most of it )
I used to think that when I lose all of my fat, my boobs would go as well. And so, that was my primary goal in my diet. I worked hard, I ran everyday. I pushed myself to the limits, and I lost a lot of weight. My mother would look at me and get freightened, my cheekbones were showing, my collarboes as well. My family used to call me a walking skeleton for a while, and then.. I was forced to eat more haha. What drove me to do that? Well, I wanted to look better, sure, but there was something deeper. I think it was all that trauma I suffered from my man boobs. I never took my shirt off, I was a constant (still am.) target to be made fun off, and people from my school kept.. pinching my breasts as if to say if that's even real. I remember one day I sort of ducked to get something while talking to my friend, and my chest sort of squeezed and showed beyond the shirt, and he just looked at me with a horrified look and asked "What the hell is that!?"
Anyway! I started looking on to it a year ago, on the web, to find I have a condition called Gynecomastia. I immidietly began looking for articles and for "cures". So many scammers would offer their e-books for a couple of dollars that would show "magical" ways to eliminate gyno forever... I ended up begging my parents to get me through a surgery. They were foreign to the condition, my father including... He didn't want me to just go through a surgery. After pushing it on end, they finally gave in JUST to see a doctor about it. The doctor said it isn't Gyno, fine, whatever. Give up? Never. We went to see an Endocrinologist (After the army sent me to investigate my boobs... I'm enlisting.) And she said it's nothing hormonal, but that's DEFINETLY gyno. And that I should seek surgical help should I feel it is damaging me.
So yeah, I finally got what I needed, that "pass", and living in a social country, we went to get some sort of a permission from a commissioner that would give his word that this surgery should take place, that's after we visited a plastic surgeon that indeed confirmed that's severe gynecomastia. The Proffessor Commissioner was very rude, I'm not easily offended but he seriously treated me as if I'm just some scum, I had to raise my voice at him and convince him that "Scars are better than man breasts!!"
At the end, he said that he'd give his word,  and that the operation is confirmed. Hooray, right? Nope buddy. You're up for the waiting list. Which takes a year to get to you. And a quick look through Google reveals that the surgeons that work with the health service are un-professional, don't eliminate gynecomastia completely, and don't even provide those pressure/compression shirts that are used for draining post-op... I don't have 9,000$ for a private surgeon. All that wouldn't be too much of a problem, if not already... The fact that I will possibly never be with a girl pre-op (Intimacy can't be achieved.. I stop it right away), the fact that I can't take my shirt off... But I'm enlisting soon. And soon means in 4 months... Which isn't enough time to get an operation and heal... And odds are, my comrades will see my gyno, and the vicious circle of high school will start again... Is there hope? I think not...

[GynRuinLife]

I've heard from most practitioners that the surgery itself lasts a few hours and is generally out-patient. At the latest,
normal activities (including exercise) can be continued after three to four weeks, but this varies wildly from case to case.

If you ship out in 4 months, you still have time right? I know this isn't very reassuring, but think of it this way. This condition is a 'blessing'. I long for the day when I can live like a normal person. I won't take a lot of things for granted, like wearing light clothes, going for a swim, sex, etc. Let your parents know this isn't just a "cosmetic surgery" in the traditional sense. You aren't trying to fix something trivial, you just want to live like a normal person, and that isn't much to ask for.

[mildgyno]

sounds totally like my story..
it even began to seem like i've written that first paragraph...
you are right brother...those docs do not completely eliminate gyno..
however, i believe that the success of a man's surgery depends on his own intelligence...
when you go and see the one doc prescribed...ask him about his diagnosis, if he says u just need lipo or just excision, definitely not a good sign (m judging on the basis of your description, correct judgement would require pics)...
based on your description, you are gonna need both...so see if you can convince that doctor to go for the excision too (they generally avoid it)...then its a go and i think you should have the surgery for the time....it would spare you from those high school horrors in the military...
your chest would definitely be flat...the worst case scenario is that u suffer crater deformity which is noticeable only if one looks very hard, very closely at your chest with your shirt off (better than boobs, who is gonna examine you everyday)...and if you want a perfect look in future, you can go for the revision surgery...
i know it sounds weird but sorry buddy, so is the situation...

also, if you have four months and you can travel abroad i would suggest getting it done in india...
the medical science is as profound over here as there and besides, its the simplest surgery not rocket science...
the travel, living, surgery and healing should all cost you nearly $2500....that too can be reduced depending upon your accommodations since the surgery here costs only between $1000 to $1200....i helped as much as i could.....just remember to have a positive outlook on life and everything is gonna fall into its place..and it would be a perfectly solved puzzle...

oh and i m also seventeen..hoping for the surgery within a year..

[hammer]

Gentlemen, I know that this probably will not be taken as conforting as it is apparent that at 55 I grow up in a different world! I went through high school, 4 years of the Navy and 7 years of the Army with gynecomastia and there was seldom a word about it said, why? I did not alow myself to be a victim, and in those days hazing was done all the time! My daughter just graduated from Navy boot camp and hazing does not happen like it use to.

We have also had some posters that were active military that had their surgery done buy the military Tri-care, totally covered!

I know that your having a tough time with this, but I just want you to know that in is not the end of the world and there are a lot of us that have live very full lives with breast. I for one have 5 kids 3 grandchildren owned my own buisness until I became disabled and still very happily married!

I hope that in the end you all can get the help that you want, but in the mean time remember that those bumps are nothing more than fat, tissue and skin and do not make up the men that you are! It is what is inside your hearts and minds that make you the men that you are!


Bob

[mildgyno]

i wish there was a like button here...
hats of hammer (bob)...
it took me a tough time too to get it in my head that not all people and girls were interested in my chest...that its just a part of my body and cannot wholly define who or what i am...
nevertheless i still hope for a future surgery...but my gyno does not bother me now as much as it used to..

and you are totally right about the victim thing...i let myself be a victim in middle school but then decided to fight back..
not that i became violent or actually fought with people....i changed my outlook and...m not a victim anymore..
its all how we perceive who we are!!

[hammer]

i wish there was a like button here...
hats of hammer (bob)...
it took me a tough time too to get it in my head that not all people and girls were interested in my chest...that its just a part of my body and cannot wholly define who or what i am...
nevertheless i still hope for a future surgery...but my gyno does not bother me now as much as it used to..

and you are totally right about the victim thing...i let myself be a victim in middle school but then decided to fight back..
not that i became violent or actually fought with people....i changed my outlook and...m not a victim anymore..
its all how we perceive who we are!!

I would have have to hit that "like button" myself! Good for you!

Life is too short and too hard as it is to let this get you down! I wish you the best of luck and hope you get that surgery soon.

Bob

[Alchemist]

i wish there was a like button here...
hats of hammer (bob)...
it took me a tough time too to get it in my head that not all people and girls were interested in my chest...that its just a part of my body and cannot wholly define who or what i am...
nevertheless i still hope for a future surgery...but my gyno does not bother me now as much as it used to..

and you are totally right about the victim thing...i let myself be a victim in middle school but then decided to fight back..
not that i became violent or actually fought with people....i changed my outlook and...m not a victim anymore..
its all how we perceive who we are!!

Hi Mildgyno,

I returned violence when it was given to me in the first place.  I was harassed about being fat.  I was also harassed by several boys about having breasts, in jr high school C-D and D in high school and even DD later when I gained some weight.  I had my share of violence in jr, high school and college.  By college I was getting attacked for being a war protester against seeing my friends sent off to Viet Nam and breasts had nothing to do with it.  I took up with a girl in college who had founded the schools nudist club and that was really the end of real trauma around breasts.  I think it is a superior answer to mere toleration of a couple of lumps of flesh attached a whole lot of other lumps of flesh.  Accept the whole body.  I had to accept that I was never going to be Cary Grant or Roger Moore, never one of the body beautiful club for dozens of reasons adding up to "ordinary".  So no specific reason mattered because there were so many.  Like Bob, it has never impinged on my social life except by my own choice.  I never lacked for young ladies willing to go out with me whether to model in front of the camera or pick blackberries or dinner and a movie.  SO like Bob and most other young men I ended up getting married and having kids and grandchildren.  In addition I am heading off for the summer at the nudist club.  As a now officially re-tired guy I can go and spend my summers where I enjoy doing so.  When I was young summer time at my grandmother's lake cottage or summer camp was great.  Now I get to go to summer camp again.  And you know what, an awful lot of guys my age have breasts, very different from age 13.  Good luck.  Find yourself a friendly young lady who likes you for who you are, not what ephemeral descriptions of physical perfection one may or may not have.   When It comes to those long nights, it's nice to have a good snuggle in bed and nobody has any illusions of perfection remaining. Age and health issues gets us all in the end.  Hammer and I are both very fortunate not to be doing that alone.

[Paa_Paw]

I grew up in a different age. Surgery was not a good option then as it is now. When we really had no choice, we were able to deal with it better.

Now that surgery is good and safe, the impact upon a young man is far greater. I don't think the problem is society so much as the fact that we are our own worst enemies.

Even now though, there are men who simply ignore the condition and get by quite well.

Instead of dwelling on how bad it is, rejoice that the surgical solution is available and very safe.

Save your sheckles and dinars, then put this behind you.

[mildgyno]

hi alchemist

when i first read about a surgical solution on wikipedia, my first thought was of relief and second of pity for those who suffered this condition before the surgical remedy was available...
it gives me immense hope sir, reading your account that one can survive against bullying when there's not a single shoulder for support...that you do not feel pity or disappointment rather you rejoice having ferried an entire lifetime with the condition, accepting it and not being ashamed of it...

as young men violence is in our blood...boiling to come out..but returning the violence was never an option for me...i tried it a few times and always came out badly beaten...at the end, my being violent turned out to be an increased headache for my father who already had a hectic business..i did not want to trouble him by any means...and i accepted suffering in silence..
i reckon that me being bullied (same as you were, no less certainly) was both because i had breasts and was socially dumb (always trying to befriend and please people so that they would not mention my breasts)...in middle school, i suffered in silence for four long years...
it was at this time that i realised that those who bully me do so because they are jealous and insecure...i always scored high and was famous among teachers...i excelled in every field (other than sports)...and then i decided to shut their mouths...instead of being violent or recluse...i worked more on my excellence...i worked towards being an all rounder..

i lost weight, became smart (both socially and physically), became an athlete, got chosen as the school president, got the hottest girl of the class and the result....
it has been 5 months since high school and the same bullies study with me at a private coaching, they dare not make fun of me (not even at my back)...some of them even try n befriend me...loosing weight helped my condition and as the name suggests i now suffer only a mildgyno...

in a way, i really am thankful for my past and my condition...i am grateful
if it was not for the bullying and gyno i might still have been a dumbass.. a little i still am
again, its how we perceive ourselves...a positive attitude helps..
cheerz!!

[Alchemist]

Hi Mildgyno,

In my freshman year of college I had a dislocated jaw and a sprained ankle as the worst injuries from being attacked.  One guy attacking me ended up with a broken arm.  Some of them attacked me because they thought that I was non-violent and wouldn't defend myself against getting beaten up.  They were wrong.  The attacks started in 3rd grade and had nothing at all to do with breasts at that age.  I was the oldest (by 1 month), biggest, fastest smartest kid in third grade. That didn't stop the 4th and 5th grade bullies.  By 7th grade they became the easiest and most visible targets.  The same guys were snapping the girls bra straps and one not a nice person was poking their breasts and mine with pins to "pop their balloons", but only from behind and NEVER caught in the act.  The school was "you have no proof" to me and the girls.  I was after him after school but I was never able to find him after school.  What it comes down to is often one or two idiots that decide that it is their joy to cause somebody else all sorts of grief. 

In clothed society body shame, body hostility, body criticism and trying to humiliate and embarrass people about their bodies is built into our whole society.  Because of lifelong nutritional metabolic problems I was moderately fat on and off much of my life and experienced the prejudice expressed through the same "body shame, body hostility, body criticism and trying to humiliate and embarrass people about their bodies" is at play. 

Dr Albert Ellis wrote "THE AMERICAN SEXUAL TRAGEDY" in the 1950s, all about how people felt about their bodies was a good measure of levels neuroticism. 

My full story is elsewhere in 2 parts.

I didn't let having larger breasts than most of the girls than stop me from most things.  I didn't go to public pools or beaches or take of my shirt but I did sing in the various vocal groups at the schools, did song and dance in Broadway musicals the schools did, and pursue the young ladies.  I had my first date the night of the day I got my drivers license and have never been without a pleasing sufficiency of girl friends.

Doing the nudist thing takes it to a whole new notch.  One gets to the point of "having seen and accepted it all".  Every ordinary body is also unique. 

I teach Tantric Alchemy, which in various versions and ways takes an energy yoga into the what are often called sexual energies and those energies are recognized as prayerful energies might be a way to describe it.  When people feel that because of their religious upbringing and sexual experience that they can't ever be acceptable because of community disapproval etc I suggest they change belief structures.  So instead of being condemned to hell why not be practicing sacred sex?

A nudist environment is much more polite than the textile environment.   "body shame, body hostility, body criticism and trying to humiliate and embarrass people about their bodies" doesn't apply.  It isn't done.  People each have their ordinary unique body and the myth of "the perfect body" is nowhere to be seen.  Probably half want to lose weight.  Another half would like to lose years.  All quite "normal".  It can be a culture shock for some people, a real relief.  Suddenly, that which they have spent years being controlled by fear and shame of, is irrelevant.  That which has required to be on guard against the "comment" or "look" or whatever snide remarks or however it's played one place or another is suddenly gone.  People are still people and most of the social games remain but "body acceptance" is the mainstay so all the body hostile games are not played.  Each resort or park or club or what have you has it's own character.  Experiencing it is not what anybody would expect and it is that qualitative difference, the acceptance of all sorts of folks who are widely diverse that makes it interesting and very enjoyable.  People generally wear no "status" items at the clubs I've been to. 

Having been to public textile beaches and pools and to nudist public beaches and private pools, a lot of men with breasts don't take their shirts off in public or it would be seen as way more common.  It was impossible to talk about in the 50s and 60s.  Nothing good could ever come of it.  I got the usual talk from the doc "pushups, goes away by itself often" and that was that.  Now there is beginning to be quite a few examples of gynecomastia on TV there will be more understanding of it's commonness.


Nothing except gaining or losing subcutaneous fat altered the cup size these past 50 years or so.

Good luck and go for some good experiences.  Don't live life lead by fear.

[mildgyno]

we wont sir...
as winston churchil said, "all we have to fear, is fear itself"..
i really am glad that i was born in an era of super advanced medical science and that no topic is a taboo here....we have doctors and these forums where we can let our heart out..

regarding the phase of life you went to....i am glad yet again that i did not have to face such bullies..
your account is much much horrible and i feel ashamed that guys could do that....till now, i did not know such perverts, who would treat human beings like that, exist...
i cannot feel sorry for you...instead i see you as a source of hope, acceptance and survival..

regarding the nudist...its the first time i have heard of such society...
however, being just 17, i neither have the capability nor the understanding to discuss about something so new to me and so spiritually attached to several...
but whatever you are doing it sounds like a good work...and you are helping troubled souls...there is no greater work than that...

i thank you and the forum again...it truly is helpful and it strengthens my idea in me yet stronger..
that its all how we perceive who we are..
keep helping others mr. alchemist...i plan to begin the same on a scale in nearly 10 years..
cheerz!!

[hammer]

Alchemist, I said in one of my post that had Adam and Eve not sin in the garden we would not even know that we are naked.

I bring this up because you mention in your post about some aren't acceptable of nudist clubs because of religious upbringing (I'll add beliefs).

Is attending a nudist camp wrong in Gods eyes? As a VERY CONSERVITIVE  Christian Pastor I have search my own beliefs for a anwser to this question. Now I did send a donation to the "topless two miles" as I said I would, as I feel it was a very good cause.

To be truthful I have not come to a final conclusion on the nudist club and religion thing.  The only conclusion I have come to is, as long as there is nothing sexual about it, nothing lustful, and none of the Commandments are being broken, I can see that when it comes to "body acceptance" it can be heathy.

I know that all this that I write may not matter to you or to others, but as a follower of Jesus Christ it is something that people like myself need to consider. That being said, I still don't see myself joining you anytime soon, as I accepted myself years ago with the help of my faith. However, you enjoy yourself and may God bless you with all you do and all the help that you try to provide with your life's experience.

Pease and love to all,
Bob

[Alchemist]

Hi Bob,

There is a large group of fundamentalist Christian nudists, and quite a few joined the club en mass some years ago.  On the net look up "fig leaf" Christian nudist.  There are even some primitive Christian groups dong nude baptism

AANR clubs are family oriented clubs and most have regularly scheduled weekend  days with special programs for the kids.  Last summer we had scuba diving sessions, competitive compass courses, fresh made potato chip "socials" and other activities.  There is nothing at all that would be troubling from a 10 commandments point of view. Be innocent. Lust is in the mind of the beholder.  The days of exercises on the lawn at dawn and vegetarianism are long gone too.  The only thing to fear about the experience is fear itself. 

 There are many small subgroups; the tobacco smokers, the drinkers, the non drinkers, the anti-drinkers and anti-smokers.  The biggest events are dances with live bands, a pig barbecue, various pot lot food events, often very elaborate.  I'm going to do a bunch of dinners with some friends this summer after getting my new grill.. 

Any activities not suitable for children are confined to ones own private tent, room or RV as at any campground, resort or country club.

As a Tantric Priest and Alchemist mostly I teach folks how to be honest with themselves and others and how to enhance the communication and emotional aspects of relationships, and methods of individual and alchemical prayer and meditation methods. But any such teaching would be a private matter and wouldn't be done publicly.  I will occasionally engage in philosophy in public however, if the that is acceptable for others in the area.

There are clubs that are purely "adult" in nature who are not in the AANR and would not be suitable for you or a lot of others.  I like the family club atmosphere.  The noise of a loud water volleyball game are the sounds of people having a good time.  In decades of going to AANR clubs I have never seen any sexual behaviors.  The ones I've heard of were reasons for expulsion from the grounds, like at any other club.  Standards of behavior are enforced.  Just try and take your dog to the pool; the club eagle eye will be on you faster than you can blink.  There is no smoking except in specific designated areas.  Massages are done in an open air pavilion near the pool and are your standard therapeutic massage.

I bring this up because you mention in your post about some aren't acceptable of nudist clubs because of religious upbringing (I'll add beliefs).

It's often that they can't accept themselves and condemn themselves because of their fears and frequently can't even admit that the dears exist or what they are and can't be happy with themselves if they take off their clothing to go swimming or hot-tub or sauna or hiking or whatever a person likes. It's like ones body wakes up to feeling again, feeling the air against the skin.  After two weeks without clothing it really feels weird and uncomfortable to be dressed.  I know locally raised ex Mormons who became "ex" because they did not feel they could fulfill the requirements for being an acceptable Mormon the way they understood it to be without having to hide their real self and lie about how they live their life and what they think.  Plenty do that, lying and hiding. There is of course also LDS Skinny Dippers.

Most people's fears come down to body issues and lots of fear about what being nude around others means. Be innocent in assigned meanings. Be careful about assumptions. Don't forget to use sunblock especially on all those areas not normally exposed to sun and sit in the shade.  It will save much grief that night.  A visit would most likely be like nothing you have imagined. Have fun.

[hammer]

Thanks for the reply! There is a lot of good info there, however, I still will not be joining you any time soon being I accepted by body years ago.

I'm sure you have read posters being concerned about being nude for surgery, well as you know I've had plenty of surgeries and have been nude in front of plenty of people. I have no problem with that. When in the hospital I do not cover my top, I let the double D's hang out! If someone has a problem it's there problem, not mine.

We just went to see our youngest daughter graduate from Navy boot camp and bought some Navy mom & dad t-shirts. The largest size that they had for me was one size smaller then I usually wear, but I still bought some and I wear them! Oh, buy the way, I wear t-shirts year round no matter how my breast look. As I said, if someone has a problem it is there problem not mine!

So, some people can get through the body shame without joining a nudist camp. I did it with good self confidence, good self esteem, and a strong faith! If you need to do it the way you do, go for it, as long as it is healthy, your not hurting anyone and not braking any Commandments.

[Alchemist]

Hi Hammer,

I became a nudist back in college days.  By the time I joined a club the breast situation was long settled.  I joined it because I always liked outdoor activities and summering at camp or a cottage on a lake or in the mountains  Now the club in the hills is fulfilling the role as a "summer house". I can't afford a private house on a lake with 300 feet of frontage and some acreage or something like that for quiet and privacy. Yes, it is only a small RV, but size isn't everything, with a big deck and a small screen room I added for insect proof dining (I dislike having to wrestle the yellow jackets for my steak) and housing my birds during the day. Of course there are all the facilities for my use as well.  There are miles of trails, fixed up by dedicated people during the decades with benches in scenic locations, gardens of wildflowers, even some places that would make very nice Goddess alters in the woods.  The RV is at the end of a road and very quiet and isolated, perfect for meditation and prayer.

There is a mystical practice that might be called any number of things.  It basically is described with the phrase "Where two or more are gathered in my name there so am I".  In an Alchemical version there is an invocational joint meditation that brings both persons into a "Living God(dess) communion" with that third being.  That is not a nudist thing so don't expect to find any mystical or Alchemical practices at any given club though you may run into all sorts of persons, which mostly you don't know about.  Everybody is just what they choose to display or can't help displaying without anything.

Thank you for the donation to the charitable program.  I think you would find the experience interesting at least and as the AANR motto goes "Experience the freedom".  And of course you would go with a lady friend or two (even 3 if you like).