Testosterone/Estrogen Imbalance....

[Gynesaur]

Well, about a week after my procedure I had my labs done and sure enough my Testosterone is wayyyyy out of whack.

My Total Testosterone level was only around 200. It should be between 500-1000. My estradiol level was abnormal as well.

So I guess this solves the mystery as to why I developed gynecomastia around 16 or so.

Now I'll need to go on testoterone medication in order to raise the level to where it should be. Right now it's @ the level of an 80 year old! From all the research I've read and from what the doc tells me, I will feel like a compltely new man with the correct amount. Cognitive thinking improvement, lean muscle mass gain, abdominal weight loss and higher libido to name a few. This should also cure my chronic fatigue, another symptom of the low levels.

In addition, I need to find the root cause of the condition. It can be one of three different organs, so the docs are working on me with X-rays, ultrasounds and possibly an MRI for the Pituatary gland. More to follow...

-Gynesaur

[trucker]

I've read there are side-effects of T replacement therapy, including gynecomastia.

Also, some people say they lost whatever positives TRT gave them after a few months.

Can somebody shed some light??

[Gynesaur]

I too have heard of possible increase in gynecomastia with T replacement therapy however there are Estrogen blocking medications to deal with that possible side effect.

In my case, I don't think it should matter much as my doc indicates that virtually all of my glands have been removed. If my estrogen level increased then there shouldn't be any gland left to stimulate new growth in theory.

I've read numerous articles on T-replacement therapy and I haven't seen much indication of temporary gains? I'm going to be seeing one of the leading Endocrinoligists in San Diego soon and he should be able to provide me a wealth of info.

-Gynesaur

[aux513s]

Yeah...you know those "estrogen blocking" medications have serious side effects like causing fatal blood clots and cataracts.

They were originally meant to treat cancer patients.

[trucker]

Gynesaur, when you've had your session with that endocrinologist, do share that information here. It might be help to a LOT of people on this board.

Which three organs are the root causes of the hormone imbalance problem? The pitiutary, the testicles and the third?

About temporary gains of TRT, well I've read several people complaining on an andropause forum. I wish I remembered its URL. This is one of the reasons from getting TRT myself.

Another question, after having your gland removed, isn't there the possibility of it growing back when your estrogen levels increase? Did you mean that everybody's born with the same amount of inactive gland, which builds up because of hormonal reasons in some of us? Once you get rid of it, you're home free.

Anyway having had the surgery must've been feeling great. Good luck with a flatt new chest man.

[Gynesaur]

>Gynesaur, when you've had your session with that >endocrinologist, do share that information here. It >might be help to a LOT of people on this board.

Well I saw the endo doc. He reviewed all of my extensive lab work. The results were all within the normal range more or less except for the low testosterone levels. Based on this information he believes it's probably just a genetic condition.

>Which three organs are the root causes of the >hormone imbalance problem? The pitiutary, the >testicles and the third?

The third would be the hypothalmic organ. My primary care doc did examine me thouroughly and I also went for a chest X-ray and ultrsound of the abdomen. All came back normal which again supports the fact that may low levels are genetic.

If there is residual gland after surgery and the estrogen levels are abnormally high then yes as far as I know this can stimulate new formation of breast tissue. The endo also felt that had my hormonal levels been normal during puberty then it could have possibly stopped the growth of gynecomastia in the first place.

Feeling good 1 month post-op. Still some swelling but major improvment so far. I will be posting some pics...

-Gynesaur

[Hypo-is-here]

You will get the help you require here at this forum for men with hypogonadism;

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/hypogonadism2/

And here is a site with very good information about the condition.

http://www.androids.org.uk/


As for the anti-estrogen medications.

The only one shown to cause serious side effects in a remotely significant way is Clomiphene Citrate, which is why it isn't generally prescribed as a long term treatment for men with hypogonadism.

If you have an estrogen problem then it can be rectified with small amounts of Arimidex, or DIM with Indolplex.

Crucially if you are on the correct protocol when it comes to your testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), you will have far fewer problems relating to estrogen/estradiol.

Current thinking is that frequent low dose injections to generally be the best when to prevent the aromatase conversion of testosterone to estradiol.  You will be able to learn more about this and other aspects of your condition from people who have had this condition for many years when you register with the forum.

I of course also have testosterone deficiency and am myself on TRT.

[Hypo-is-here]

I hypogonadism a condition that you are born with or does it come later in life??? (I mean can your testostorene be normal one day and then later be diagnosed as hypogonadism?).   Talking pst the normal pubescent hormonal shifts.

Yes.

It is possible to have problems that relate to the pituitary or testicles later in life and have hypogonadism as a result.

I have hypogonadism as a result of chemotherapy post puberty.

Mine is related to the pituitary, and termed as secondary hypogonadism or to put it correctly hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.

[gynosucks1]

i'd rather have low lvls of test than be on test the rest of my life....

ya, as soon as u stop with the regular test injections/gel things will return to normal

the test ull be injected/gelled with will aromotyze to est, so u have to be on anti-estrogens either way.

if i was faced with this i would just get surgery and take anti-ests the rest of my life and well be skinny i guess but not have gyno

[Paa_Paw]

Generally speaking, The men who have experienced Gynecomastia due to Testosterone (or other steroid) use were self medicating.  Obviously this is not always the the case though.

If the Testosterone level becomes excessively high, the body responds in two ways:  The normal secretion of Testosterone diminishes,  and the surplus is converted to Estrogen.

Thus a person can cause themselves to become Hypogonadal by taking androgens.

If the person has a low level of Testosterone, and is recieving monitored treatment, there should not be a problem.

[Hypo-is-here]

i'd rather have low lvls of test than be on test the rest of my life....

ya, as soon as u stop with the regular test injections/gel things will return to normal

the test ull be injected/gelled with will aromotyze to est, so u have to be on anti-estrogens either way.

if i was faced with this i would just get surgery and take anti-ests the rest of my life and well be skinny i guess but not have gyno

Unfortunately if you did have hypogonadism and take the course of action that you have just illustrated you would setting yourself up for a terrible fall.

Long term untreated hypogonadism results in a higher statistical chance of the following;

CVD Cardio Vascular Disease- the worlds second biggest killer behind cancer

Osteoporosis- especially if you took anti-estrogens alone

Diabetes- 1 in every 3 men with type 2 diabetes has hypogonadism

Alzheimers according to the latest information/studies there is a significant correlation with those suffering from Alzheimers and hypogonadism.

Furthermore for many men untreated hypogonadism means one or more of the following;

Lowered libido
Erection problems
Concentration problems
Depression
Low energy levels
Chronic back pain

I could go on but I think I'll leave it there.


Just to make sure you realize that the above are very real problems that can and do occur, I should tell you that I have osteoporosis in my spine as a result of my condition going untreated for as long as it did.

You say as soon as you stop the gel or injections things will return to normal- what do you mean here?

Men with hypogonadism are on treatment for life and it is the treatment when correctly implemented that gives them a good quality of life.

P.S

Paw Paw How are you?

[gynosucks1]

Unfortunately if you did have hypogonadism and take the course of action that you have just illustrated you would setting yourself up for a terrible fall.

Long term untreated hypogonadism results in a higher statistical chance of the following;

CVD Cardio Vascular Disease- the worlds second biggest killer behind cancer

Osteoporosis- especially if you took anti-estrogens alone

Diabetes- 1 in every 3 men with type 2 diabetes has hypogonadism

Alzheimers according to the latest information/studies there is a significant correlation with those suffering from Alzheimers and hypogonadism.

Furthermore for many men untreated hypogonadism means one or more of the following;

Lowered libido
Erection problems
Concentration problems
Depression
Low energy levels
Chronic back pain

I could go on but I think I'll leave it there.


Just to make sure you realize that the above are very real problems that can and do occur, I should tell you that I have osteoporosis in my spine as a result of my condition going untreated for as long as it did.

You say as soon as you stop the gel or injections things will return to normal- what do you mean here?

Men with hypogonadism are on treatment for life and it is the treatment when correctly implemented that gives them a good quality of life.

P.S

Paw Paw How are you?

ok, now list the possible chances of developing things like prostate cancer from test treatment..?

it's a lose, lose situation.  Personally, i would not go on test treatement.  i know somebody in real life who opted out after being on it for a month.

i'm sure he had more problems with it than this.. but his main reason was the ups/downs that came in between injections.  he went on numerous dosing schedules also, and the same thing pretty much happend at different intervals each time

[gynosucks1]

btw A serm will actually help, austeo, and control breast growth, so u can cross that one off

[gynosucks1]

  i know there are several degrees of this condition.  You don't nec expierience any of the things you listed
anyway, i'm actually talking about the people who go to an endo for gyno reasons, and the endo tells them they are hypogondic.  Again, not every hypogondic expieriences those conditions, and opting to take test-therapy just for your gyno would be a no in my book

[Hypo-is-here]

btw A serm will actually help, austeo, and control breast growth, so u can cross that one off

Regarding the osteo situation, men require testosterone for bone formation and remodeling and  anti-estrogens SERM medications whilst able to slow down bone loss will never actually be able prevent osteoporosis in men.

I quote world leading Andrologist Dr Eugene Shippen from his book the Testosterone Syndrome and his chapter titled Men, Women and Bone.

Quote Verbatim
I believe that a significant percentage of men may need testosterone and possibly human growth hormone in quantities determined by measurement of their personal levels.  More controversially, I think we are going to discover that women are going to benefit not only from replacing their estrogen, but, in many cases, from adding a small amount of testosterone to restore their natural levels.  Estrogen will slow down the rate of osteoclast formation, but this only means that bone is lost more slowly.  To actually halt, and perhaps even partially reverse, the loss of bone increased levels of an osteoblastic stimulator is needed.  That usually means either testosterone or human growth hormone.    
Unquote

In short if a man has hypogonadism, he is deficient in a substance that is vital for bone remodeling and without it anti estrogen or no anti estrogen he will have a far higher statistical likelihood of developing osteoporosis.

Just like I did.

Dr Shippens observations have been proven over the course of time with all the studies into the differing androgens Androgel etc showing dramatic bone density improvements seen in men studied.  Furthermore since Dr Shippen made his observations we have seen the introduction of testosterone as a treatment for osteo conditions in women in the small doses that he stated and we have also seen a move for the use of testosterone replacement in post menopausal HRT regimes.

 i know there are several degrees of this condition.  You don't nec expierience any of the things you listed
anyway, i'm actually talking about the people who go to an endo for gyno reasons, and the endo tells them they are hypogondic.  Again, not every hypogondic expieriences those conditions, and opting to take test-therapy just for your gyno would be a no in my book

That is simply untrue.  Men who have hypogonadism have a number of the symptoms I have listed,

How do I know this for a fact?

Simple, because a diagnosis of hypogonadism should only be arrived at when the individual has symptoms and pathology indicating such- they should also have a physical examination as that can also reveal indicators.

A man with low blood levels of testosterone may appear hypogonadal, but if he has no symptoms of hypogonadism, has a normal bone density test and nothing abnormal revealed via examination then he is not suffering from testosterone deficiency and should not be placed on TRT.

Many differing chemical interactions can account for adequate testosterone despite on the face of it an inadequate supply of testosterone.  In a typical man 98 percent of his testosterone is bound to the protein carrier SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin) that is made in the liver.  If a man has a low level of SHBG he will have an elevated level of the crucial level of free testosterone.  Low levels of CAG repeats within the androgen receptor cells can also account for low levels of circulating testosterone appearing abnormal but actually allowing for an adequate supply of testosterone for a given individual.

The best endocrinologists or Andrologists know that you should not diagnose hypogonadism or in fact deny a diagnosis of hypogonadism on pathology results alone.


When a man is found on the basis of symptoms and pathology to have hypogonadism, it is very important for that individual to have his condition medicated with TRT.

For these men the benefits clearly outweigh any potential drawbacks and this is well proven within medical circles.

The conditions that can occur at far higher statistical rates that I highlighted for you, if hypogonadism is left untreated are clear and are stark warnings of what can and does happen in untreated hypogonadism.

I am a walking example of what can happen if hypogonadism is left untreated having developed osteoporosis as a result.  I have been in touch with support groups around the world for a few years now and I can tell you that I am far from a one off with many of the people I know having a variety of the conditions I have previously brought to your attention as a result of untreated hypogonadism.

I can tell you, that when you actually suffer from these facts and their ramifications- where each and every day your life is affected as a result (as opposed to occasionally thinking of them as far away concepts and notions) then the reality is seen all too clearly!!!