Doc says 40 percent of Gynos get Breast Cancer

[nicktheory]

http://www.phoenix5.org/Basics/treatsides/gyneBCaMen.html

This is why sometimes I get skeptical in doctor's offices, reading doc opinions online, etc. I can only assume this male breast cancer expert is clueless about gyne and MBC. Or does he know something I haven't read elsewhere.

[Preds]

It sounds like to me that he is basing his facts on the percent of gyne sufferers that is from excess estrogen are at 40% risk.  Not all gyne sufferers are from that cause so statistics are not 100% correct when applied to everyone with gyne.  One thing I learned from my statistics class is how statistic=s can be manipulated to say what you want and still be 100% true,  What matters is how you say it,,,,and what info you leave out.

[Hypo-is-here]

The article has been worded VERY badly and has inadvertently said something VERY wrong.

If 40% of men with gynecomastia developed breast cancer- breast cancer would not account for 1% of all male cancers but would be the most common of male cancers and the biggest killer of men- but it isn't.

The article should have said;

Breast cancer in men represents 1% of all male cancers.

Of that 1% 40% have gynecomastia.

That IS the reality.

That is entirely different from what the article INCORRECTLY stated.

[nicktheory]

I'd like to see a medical or even a decent news site on that 40 percent of all male breast cancer sufferers have gynecomastia. Sound suspiciously high. If there are 1500 new cases a year, that would mean 600 or so have gyno, too. Add in familiar breast cancer, which raises the odds 350 percent. Interesting stat question. Any math pros here.

[Preds]

Yea and if those statistics are correct, how does insurance companies still deny payment for surger?

[Hypo-is-here]

I'd like to see a medical or even a decent news site on that 40 percent of all male breast cancer sufferers have gynecomastia. Sound suspiciously high. If there are 1500 new cases a year, that would mean 600 or so have gyno, too. Add in familiar breast cancer, which raises the odds 350 percent. Interesting stat question. Any math pros here.

NO NO NO!!!!!  

Your getting it totally wrong.

Listen;

It means that out of the 1% of those that are unfortunate enough to get male breast cancer 40% will happen to have gynecomastia.

Do you not understand?

It is absolutely NOT the other way around as you have termed it.

I'm going to use a stupid and extreme analogy to highlight the difference.

Imagine if there was a one in 20 million chance of winning the lottery and lets say 60% of those that won the lottery happened to have gynecomastia

That would not make winning the lottery common for men with gynecomastia, as their would be lots of men with gynecomastia still but only a VERY small number of those that have won the lottery.

Get it?

[Preds]

Hypo
Don't discount it though.  It also means that Gyne is another potential risk factor for male breast cancer.  And with 40% of the 1% having it,,,, could be a good indicator for medical intervention and testing.  Kind of like the testing for prostate cancer.  Can't remember name of blood test but it is a good indicator for prostate cancer, however, a high level does not mean that you have prostate cancer.  The opposite is also true.  Basically, both are just good data collecting and should be used as tools for further evaluation.   JMHO

[Hypo-is-here]

Hypo
Don't discount it though.  It also means that Gyne is another potential risk factor for male breast cancer.  And with 40% of the 1% having it,,,, could be a good indicator for medical intervention and testing.  Kind of like the testing for prostate cancer.  Can't remember name of blood test but it is a good indicator for prostate cancer, however, a high level does not mean that you have prostate cancer.  The opposite is also true.  Basically, both are just good data collecting and should be used as tools for further evaluation.   JMHO

I am merely painting the correct statistical picture, the reality.  I am not discounting anything; I am just putting the likelihood in its correct context.

You do not need to try and tell me about cancer, I had liver cancer at 16 and bladder cancer at 25, so believe me when I say I am well versed in this subject matter.

The common blood test for testing for prostate cancer that you were trying to recall was the PSA, (Prostate Specific Antigen test).

It must be said though your comparison is not really particularly relevant IMHO.

The fact is gynecomastia is FAR more likely to be caused by many other conditions and having gynecomastia in of itself is not an indicator of breast cancer, which as stated is a highly, highly unusual diagnostic finding and one that is usually ruled out early on.  

If you are concerned about the associated conditions and risks involved in having gynecomastia you are better advised to look to the real culprits that can and do cause major problems for a significant minority of men.

10% of all gynecomastia sufferers have hypogonadism.  Untreated this can cause an increased chance of suffering from Osteoporosis and diabetes (silent killers) with the later two thirds of men with type two diabetes have hypogonadism.  Hypogonadism left untreated also causes an increased risk of CVD (Cardio Vascular Disease), Alzheimer’s, strokes and clinical depression.

8% of all gynecomastia sufferers have underlying hepatic problems- some cirrhosis.


Here is something I wrote in another post quote
The number is arrived at in accordance with Ismail and Barths (The SAS Steroid Center, Department of Clinical Biochemistry and Immunology Leeds) 2002 white paper entitled Endocrinology of Gynecomastia which concurred with the earlier findings of Glen D Braustein M.D Endocrinologist and the findings he published in his 1993 paper entitled Gynecomastia.



It is in fact 29% of all gynecomastia sufferers have an underlying causative condition.

Cirrhosis/Liver problems 8%
Primary Hypogonadism 8%
Testicular Tumor 3% (corrected)
Secondary Hypogondism 2%
Hyperthyroidism 1%
Renal Disease 1%
Others 6% (this is the title as they are many causes that add up to less than 1% each)  

Total 29%

Unquote

As you can see you are missing the larger issues in pursuit of (white elephant) something that is overly covered by physicians- many of whom have an obsession with the unlikely possibility of breast cancer.

Even Hemochromatosis is a more likely cause of gynecomastia than breast cancer and that can kill.

Check that out.

Actually, it's more likely the other way around: gyno can be a product of male breast cancer, but male breast cancer not a product of gyno.

Alone, gynecomastia doesn't suggest anything about a person's likelihood of having male breast cancer.

I think all that is known medically is that the association is there and that it is a rare male cancer and that having gynecomastia makes you more likely to have this rare cancer- with the operative word being RARE!!!  

[nicktheory]

Hypo, here is what I am saying (calmly, too.) There are 1,500 men who get male breast cancer in the U.S. each year. It's a well documentated statistic; Google it. You are saying that approximately 600 of these 1,500 men also have gynecomastia. And you may well be right. I just cannot find any back up/supporting data for this. I would think that if almost half the men each year who get male breast cancer also have gyno then doctors would include gyno as a potential warning sign/red flag/co-existing condition (but not a cause) of male breast cancer. My experience with doctors has been that they do not know if gyno is a co-existing condition with male breast cancer 40 percent of the time. Not enough studies have been done. If you know of some data, even journalistic, please pass it on. The article I cited was the first I had ever heard of such a number. Or any number. Cheers,  

[Preds]

Actually, it's more likely the other way around: gyno can be a product of male breast cancer, but male breast cancer not a product of gyno.

I don't think you can make that comparison and be statistically correct.  Don't get me wrong.  Not saying that you have a 40% chance for cancer if you have gyne but it is definately something to consider

[Hypo-is-here]

Hypo, here is what I am saying (calmly, too.) There are 1,500 men who get male breast cancer in the U.S. each year. It's a well documentated statistic; Google it. You are saying that approximately 600 of these 1,500 men also have gynecomastia. And you may well be right. I just cannot find any back up/supporting data for this. I would think that if almost half the men each year who get male breast cancer also have gyno then doctors would include gyno as a potential warning sign/red flag/co-existing condition (but not a cause) of male breast cancer. My experience with doctors has been that they do not know if gyno is a co-existing condition with male breast cancer 40 percent of the time. Not enough studies have been done. If you know of some data, even journalistic, please pass it on. The article I cited was the first I had ever heard of such a number. Or any number. Cheers,  

I don't doubt that you are being calm in what you are saying and as I have already stated it is NOT a condition that is overlooked by the medical profession when gynecomastia is considered, so trust me when I say your concerns do not go without consideration.

However what I am saying is;

Given the statistical liklihood of its occurance, it is already given greater consideration than many other conditions that occur with far greater frequency, some of which are equally serious.

As I see it you and many in the medical fraternity are missing the bigger picture.

It is not about discounting breast cancer, despite its VERY low frequency, it is usually one of the routine checks that endocrinologists perform in dealing with gynecomastia.  It is about identifying conditions that cause equal threat that are FAR more strongly associated with gynecomastia that at present are often poorly considered/investigated.

Whilst your fears/thoughts are not without foundation, your concerns really VERY much should lie elsewhere.


 

[Preds]

I am merely painting the correct statistical picture, the reality.  I am not discounting anything; I am just putting the likelihood in its correct context.

You do not need to try and tell me about cancer, I had liver cancer at 16 and bladder cancer at 25, so believe me when I say I am well versed in this subject matter.

The common blood test for testing for prostate cancer that you were trying to recall was the PSA, (Prostate Specific Antigen test).

It must be said though your comparison is not really particularly relevant IMHO.

Thanks
I could not remember PSA.  However, it is a very relevant comparison of statistical data.  What I am saying is that just b/c your PSA level is high, does not mean you have prostate cancer just like someone that has gyne, does not mean that they have male breats cancer.

To my original response.  Statistics can be manipulated to reveal whatever you want it to say.  Its all in the wording.  You make several responses to it being rare.  But that is putting all gyne sufferers in the same pot.  So to speak.  If someone wanted to do REAL research on the matter then one would have to classify each individual cause of gyne and then see what the likelyhood of male breast cancer would be for each individual cause.  I believe then you would find some causes of gyne would have an extremely small chance someone would develop cancer while other catagories would be much higher negating the rare chance.  

Furthermore, one has to take in consideration out of the other 60% of male breast patients(if the numbers were correct) is that the original source of their cancer?

Too many "what ifs "to consider to ever get anything accurate.  It is my personal belief that if you look at the men with breast cancer( as their primary disease) (although may be small in number) a large percent of them would also be gyne sufferers.  Much more than 40%.

[nicktheory]

The question, my original actually, remains, regardless of whether it should be of large concern to me. The question is ... are indeed 40 percent (or 600) of the 1500 cases of male breast cancer diagnosed n the U.S. each year cases that have as a co-condition (not necessarily a cause or cause from) gynecomastia? I am simply looking for some verification of this claim.

[Preds]

I understand your concern.  However, its not a yes or no that can answer that.  To understand statistics is to understand the complexity of the question.

To answer another way, the way the article you gave states the facts; yes 40% of the patients that have male breast cancer also have gyne.  However, this is only 1% cause of cancer in men.  That is if the info you gave/read is accurate.
I do agree with statements above that if you look at the big picture, if you have gyne then the odds that you will develop ,male breast cancer is very small chance.  However, its all in how you manipulate the numbers

[Hypo-is-here]

Thanks
I could not remember PSA.  However, it is a very relevant comparison of statistical data.  What I am saying is that just b/c your PSA level is high, does not mean you have prostate cancer just like someone that has gyne, does not mean that they have male breats cancer.

To my original response.  Statistics can be manipulated to reveal whatever you want it to say.  Its all in the wording.  You make several responses to it being rare.  But that is putting all gyne sufferers in the same pot.  So to speak.  If someone wanted to do REAL research on the matter then one would have to classify each individual cause of gyne and then see what the likelyhood of male breast cancer would be for each individual cause.  I believe then you would find some causes of gyne would have an extremely small chance someone would develop cancer while other catagories would be much higher negating the rare chance.  

Furthermore, one has to take in consideration out of the other 60% of male breast patients(if the numbers were correct) is that the original source of their cancer?

Too many "what ifs "to consider to ever get anything accurate.  It is my personal belief that if you look at the men with breast cancer( as their primary disease) (although may be small in number) a large percent of them would also be gyne sufferers.  Much more than 40%.

The reseach has already been conducted as to the relative frequencies of the differing aetiologies of gynecomastia.

I gave them above when I quoted myself from an earlier post.

You state that statistics can be manipulated to reveal whatever you want them to say.

The implication of that statement is that statistics are useless.

The fact is statistics are only usless if the source of the statistics is in question or the manner in which they obtained the statistics is in question.

The operative word in your comment was "manipulated".

Some sources of statistics can be relied upon to be above such action.

The source of the statistics I quoted is one such source.

In fact that source was actually concuring with the statistics that were set out many years earlier by a world leading endocrinologist from the United States.

Breast cancer doesn't even represent 1% of the causes of gynecomastia.

Testicular cancer accounts for 3%, yet this doesn't seem to concern anyone in this discussion.

8% is caused by hepatic problems, a percentage of which will have life threatening cirrhosis- yet this goes unmentioned as a cause for greater alarm.

10% of all gynecomastia sufferers have hypogonadism which if left untreated could eventually lead to death via a Osteoporosis or Diabetes or Alzeimers or a stroke or CVD.

Renal disease accounts for 1%- again no mention.


I understand you guys are interested in this, but in all honesty you are getting bogged down in the minutia and missing the bigger picture- I cannot over emphasis this!!!

More people with gynecomastia will die as a result of undiagnosed Hemochromatosis than they will from breast cancer.

But do you know what that is?

Answer ?

And is it something that is tested for routinely as breast cancer is?

Answer- NO.