Yet Another Estrogen Question

[kindherb42]

This question is in regards to dietary estrogen.  I know that estraidol produced in our body is the strongest estrogen and has the greatest effect on our body, but I had a question about dietary estrogens.

Is the estrogens in soy similar to the estrogens in milk?

Which of the two is a greater danger for those with gynecomastia?

As in danger I don't really mean danger, but rather has the higher chance of making the breast tissue grow more?

I am scared to drink milk because it seems like when I drink milk, the glandular tissue burns BUT it could be mental since I have read things saying estrogen is in milk.

[4tuneit1]

Soy has shown in some recent studies to work opposite against raising estrogen as it competes with natural estrogen receptors...plus the super low levels of phytoestrogen you would get in a normal daily diet wouldn't translate into anything abnormal necassarily...One would probably need to eat tons and tons of soy to see a nominal effect.

[STILLgotIT]

Actually, the phytoestrogen(s) in soy (genistein) has been shown to have a marked effect on both the male and female endocrine system.

Genistein is not estrogen, but rather a chemical compound that mimics estrogen.

See this article: http://e.hormone.tulane.edu/estrogens.html

A notable quote from it is:

Under these guidelines, any natural steroids, plant compounds or synthetic chemicals that elicit these responses in laboratory tests are considered to be estrogenic. All are not satisfied with this interpretation, however.

The bottom line is that is "how does your body react to this estrogenic compound?"

From personal experience... my first son was fed soy-based formula in addition to breastmilk. He was also drinking Silk soymilk for about a year before I noticed him getting  a mild case of gyne. He was only 2 years old, but his nips were significantly puffy. I immediately discontinued the soy in every form. His gyne has not gone away.

My 2nd son was NEVER given soy anything and he doeesn't have any signs of gyne.

Thus, based upon my observation soy products DO have a significant estrogenic effect.

Stay away from soy. Here's more reading on the topic:

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/phytoestrogens.html


http://www.the7thfire.com/health_and_nutrition/manhood.html

[kicka]

I am shocked as to all the things we can ingest which can cause gyne. At my works every one has a t shirt as uniform and i was looking around at the amount of lads with gyne who proably dont even no they have it and id say it was about 1 in 4!  I wonder if this has always been the case or its a rising problem.

Sorry of topic carry on.

[Paa_Paw]

With respect to milk, I do not think that there is too much to be worried about.  

My wife was advised to not take birth control pills while she was nursing because an elevated Estrogen level supresses lactation. Conversely, continued lactation often keeps estrogen levels and therfore ovulation supressed.  The latter not being quite reliable enough to preclude the advisability of some type of contraception.

[STILLgotIT]

I was vegan for ten years, eating loads of soy products. I developed gyne, but it was BEFORE the veganism, and the only time the gyne seemd to get worse was when I took Prevacid for a year for recurring gastritis. I've spoken to two endocrinologists, two nutritionists, and done lots of my own research and there seems to be zero evidence (in peer-reviewed journals, anyway) of soy products leading to any sort of feminization.

To STILLgotIT: While I'm glad you're protective of your boys and want to avoid their developing our little 'problem,' the scenario you mentioned in no way proves that soy leads to gyne or other feminizing traits. Hormones are quite variable during childhood (hell, for a while in the womb we have no gender) and what you describe is, according to all published science I've found, a coincidence. I say this only in case your sons need to have soy in their diets at some point, since I don't want you to worry

The hormones fed to animals by industrialized farming and dairy farming are more of a concern, as are many plastics. If you can, buy organic and hormone-free, or skip the meat for that meal. Oh, and avoid proton-pump inhibitors like Prevacid - trust me!

brooklyn,

I agree that it doesn't "prove" that the soy caused the condition. But, for me to continue providing soy to my sons would be me "betting their health" that it wasn't the soy.

As a man, I don't want anything to tamper with the delicate hormonal structure in my, or my son's, bodies.

As you mentioned, there are many other sources of estrogenic compounds (plastics in manufacturing, pesticides, etc.). But, soy is a very real source.  People who are in the habit of consuming soy do so in large amounts... not in moderation, typically.
The average person who consumes soy is a "soy-fiend" due to their stance against meat. Soy-milk, soy-cheese, soy-hotdogs, soy-hamburgers, etc.

Meat, too, is laced with rBGH and a myriad of other hormones and antibiotics. Who knows, gyne could be the least of our worries when it comes to possible side-effects from all of this.

The question to ask yourself is "do soy isoflavones act upon your body in an estrogenic way?" The answer is, most definitely, "yes, they do."

Thus, the question becomes "how much, if any, do I want of this stuff in my body?"

More reading:

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/no-joy.html

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_51/b3712218.htm

There are TONS more studies and articles on the subject for those willing to Google around and find them.

[Hypo-is-here]

This whole thread is a HUGE!!! red herring in the grand scheme of things IMHO.

When there are so many PROVEN causes of gynecomastia that 99% of people here have not checked out;

Pubertal hormonal imbalance
Basic hormone and complicated hormonal issues,
adverse alterations in liver and renal function
medication side-effects
Genetic issues (a huge black hole of possibilities).

Well it just seems that anyone who is ultra serious in ascertaining the cause of their gynecomastia should wish to check out every concievable condition PROVEN to cause gynecomastia before letting their mind run-amok with the most tenuous of connections and thought-to-be causes that have NO proven or very weakly associated connections.  

People find a need to correlate their gynecomastia to an exact cause, they feel the need to find an answer, that is perfectly understandable.

But it is all too easy to latch onto the most unscientific of information (particularly via the internet) or associate their situation with mere coincidences and anecdotal information.

e.g

gynecomastia occurs most readily in three age groups, babies/todlers, teenagers and those over 50.

I saw someone mention that their little one was given soy and the soy was then removed from the diet and the gynecomastia resolved.  But this often happens spontaneously to todlers anyway, so there is no proven link whatsoever between soy and the timing of what happened with this child.  This is simply anecdotal information.  

If a strong association existed between these dietary factors and gynecomastia then we would almost certainly have more medical information on such a conection and it would not be anecdotal but would have been shown under controlled conditions within studies.

Just to re-iterate;

If people are seriously interested/concerned in the aetiology of their gynecomastia surely to goodness they should be looking at the bigger picture and the proven causes....preferably with at least one top draw medical professional.

[STILLgotIT]

Hypo,

The question was asked if soy could cause an estrogenic effect in the human body.

Thus, the answer to that question is, "YES, it does cause an estrogenic effect." There isn't any debate as to whether or not it causes an estrogenic effect. This is why the scientific community calls them PHYTO-ESTROGENS!!

Genistein is NOT an estrogen, yet they still call it phytoestrogen. Why? Because, it emits an estrogenic effect in your body. This isn't debatable.

The question is "how much is safe?'

Would you eat "phyto-arsenic?" If something acted like arsenic in your body would you eat it?

People mention that asian diets are high in soy. I recently read an article where the average asian gets about 8 grams/day of soy protein. That's a LOW amount of soy. Like the article said, Asians don't run around eating soy hotdogs, hamburgers, cheese, energy bars, protein powders, and everything else in between. Asians eat whole foods, i.e. the soybeans themselves. Thus, they don't consume anywhere near the high levels that today's American "health conscious" consumer does.

Sure, move on and study the other "proven" causes of gyen. But, in the process, avoid the product with proven[/i] estrogenic effects (signified by them naming genistein a "phyto-estrogen.")

It makes me wonder... the scientific community calls genistein a "phyto-estrogen" and people doubt the estrogenic-effect of it. What do they have to name it to get our attention?

Maybe phyto-this'll-turn-you-into-a-chick compound would be a little more grabbing.

So, as a man who already knows that he has a predisposition to estrogen-sensitivity (evidenced by the presence of gyne)... HOW MUCH ADDITIONAL ESTROGEN DO YOU WANT IN YOUR DIET?

Once you answer that question you can then assimilate soy into your diet accordingly.

http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/03summary.htm

[STILLgotIT]

None of the links provided thus far have been authoritative (anyone can put up a Web site) or have come from peer-reviewed journals.

This article that I posted above seems to be "authoritative," seeing the angle that it comes from and the fact that it is from Tulane University. It isn't just "someone who put up a website."

http://e.hormone.tulane.edu/estrogens.html

That article isn't "grinding an ax" or directly addressing the soy question in any way. It is just stating a fact that estrogens and estrogen mimicking compounds have a marked effect on human endocrinology.

Some people are more sensitive than others. Some will be able to ingest phytoestrogens all day long. Others, as I did, will experience breast tenderness and soreness when eating high levels of soy.

Furthermore, the estrogenic effects of soy are so well known and pronounced that soy has become an alternative to synthetic hormone replacement therapy for women going through menopause.

Ask yourself this... do you want to take the same thing that menopausal women take to alleviate the symptoms of menopause?

For those that don't know.... menopause is when a woman's estrogen levels TANK. Thus, they take synthetic hormones, or SOY products, to get their hormone levels back up to higher levels.

To address the question of soy working as an anti-estrogen compound; if this was true, then wouldn't soy further exasperate the symptoms of menopause seeing as the soy would be competing with what estrogen the menopausal women had left in them?

Take a look at this webpage: http://www.womens-menopause-health.com/natural_estrogen_replacement.htm

Notable quote:

Women often incorporate foods high in the estrogen compounds of foods containing phytoestrogens to supply their body with the estrogen necessary to alleviate menopause symptoms. Certain foods contain hormone-like compounds called phytoestrogens, plant-based foods high in estrogen-like compounds. These phytoestrogens are an excellent natural hormone replacement that converts into estrogen-like compounds in the body.

Well boys, have fun eating this stuff. LOL!

[4tuneit1]

The womens-menopause-health site is just some storefront. The articles I linked to are published research articles. I'd give more weight to the statements of medical researchers than to supplement salespeople.

There isn't much proof that phyto-estrogens such as soy are better than placebos for menopause-related estrogen deficiencies.
For example, refer to: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/323/7309/354

Most of what you see is speculation by supplement manufacturers. I still challenge you to separate the medical research from the marketing and armchair speculation and point to any qualified, published research that shows that phyto-estrogens (from soy, citrus, broccoli, whatever) display no anti-estrogen effects, cause higher estradiol levels in men, or cause gynecomastia.

I support everything Brooklyn has stated...and what isn't addressed is "How Much?".  Even if phyto-estrogens had some remote possibility of converting to estrogen in the human body, how much would a normal diet need to take in?? Would a glass of Soy milk a day, a soy burger a week, pose such a great threat...I hardly think so.  

-Aspartame studies on rats showed that to induce cancer in their studies, they needed to feed the rats the human equivelant of something like 1,000x daily the normal dietary amount, which would be like drinking 20+Diet sodas a day.

[STILLgotIT]

I still challenge you to separate the medical research from the marketing and armchair speculation and point to any qualified, published research that shows that phyto-estrogens (from soy, citrus, broccoli, whatever) display no anti-estrogen effects, cause higher estradiol levels in men, or cause gynecomastia.

I didn't say that it would "cause higher estradiol levels in men."

What I did say is that phytoestrogens act upon the body in a similar way to estrogen, hence the term "estrogenic" is applied to them.. or, "estrogen mimicking compounds."

I did point to a medical opinion on the matter and this was the quote:

Under these guidelines, any natural steroids, plant compounds or synthetic chemicals that elicit these responses in laboratory tests are considered to be estrogenic. All are not satisfied with this interpretation, however.

The "all are not satisfied with this interpretation" would likely include brooklyn

Also, it is commonly known that soy is used as a substitute for synthetic hormone therapy. The "supplement marketing" is just following the consumer demand. But, I appreciate your emphasis on medical review.

[kindherb42]

So what my question is, do the phytoestrogens in soy have a larger impact on gynecomastia (make gyne grow or prevent it from leaving, etc) than the estrogens in cows milk?

[Hypo-is-here]

I maintain all that I have stated previously.

Nothing of consequence has been put forward to PROVE any association between phytoestrogens and gynecomastia.

And nothing anyone decides to try and find via google searches will alter that belief as such information is not in existence/believed in the general scientific community at present.

If significant information comes to light and is corroborated by multiple credible scientific/medical sources then I might think otherwise, but until then all this talking is mere speculation.

Instead of speculating about such possibilities, people who are seriously interested in getting to the bottom of the cause of their gynecomastia would be best placed looking elsewhere with a relevant medical professional at the PROVEN causes of the condition.

I could also raise the argument that Tamoxifen, Clomiphene Citrate and in fact all SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) medications all in fact have estrogenic effects and yet they actually reduce gynecomastia.

In the above medications a weak estrogen blocks the potent estradiol at the ER then what happens is that such estrogens actually lower the power/effects of estrogens throughout the body.

So I am afraid that phytoestogen does not automatically mean that they must increase your overall estrogenic status as it is possible that they in fact block the more potent estradiol.

When it comes to phyto-estrogens there is a school of thought that argues that they in fact do act in this way and lower the overall effect of estrogens and act like very weak SERM medication.

Personally I don't go in for your argument or the one I have presented that others argue.  I don’t think that phytoestrogens are of any significant importance one way or the other until I see something that PROVES otherwise.

I like PROOF, I am a little odd that way.

P.S

If people haven’t had the cause of their gynecomastia evaluated by a medical professional I should say that all the conditions below are VASTLY more likely to be a cause of concern (though it should be noted that most men have gynecomastia as a result of a temporary pubertal hormonal imbalance);

Hypogonadism via low testosterone or low dihydrotestosterone
Metabolic hypogonadism via elevated SHBG or poor androgen to estrogen ratios
Thyroid disorders
Poor Liver function (any condition that would cause such- (Hep C, Hemochromatosis, iron overload via blood transfusions, Aids, Liver cancer etc)
Poor Renal function (renal disease or insufficiency)
Genetic aromatase excess
Genetic causes of hypogonadism such as Klinefelters, Kallman Syndrome or mosaic conditions/other chromosomal abnormalities.  Any condition that relates to an insensitivity to androgens- PAIS, alpha 5 reductase deficiency etc
Testicular cancer
Breast Cancer

There are causative conditions that I am sure I have overlooked but certainly I have covered the most significant causes of the condition.

Also there are many medications PROVEN to have a cause and effect relationship or at least an association with gynecomastia that should be thoroughly checked out.

If people do want to speculate about phyto-estrogens fine, but they should at the very least have an endocrine assessment to rule out the significant proven causes of the condition….

[STILLgotIT]

So what my question is, do the phytoestrogens in soy have a larger impact on gynecomastia (make gyne grow or prevent it from leaving, etc) than the estrogens in cows milk?

Good question. Cows are milked even when they're pregnant. So, you get all sorts of nasty hormones in there. Plus, the milk is "cross-mixed" in large vats at the processing center.

But, the IGF-1 in the bovine milk is of greater concern than estrogen.

I'd be interested to hear something about this, too.

[tonysoprano]

Is it not true that if one were to draw up a pie-graph of all present cases of gynecomastia globally (hypothetically speaking), with all the segments/slices/portions of the pie representing causes (proven or speculative) of gyne, then by far the largest segment (hands-down) would be "IDIOPATHIC" .....?

ie. The vast majority of all gyne cases anywhere, would have no pinpoint-able cause. ( and this bracket would also include those who had a temporary pubertal hormone shift that resulted in gyne which remained permanent thereafter. As those now in their 20s.30s.40s,etc would have no way now of proving that their current gyne was in fact the exact result of said pubertal hormonal shift, these cases could all be deemed idiopathic cases of gyne)