i cant live like this

[serg]

Sorry guys, I try not to get involved in religious debates but I'm afraid I'm compelled to come in here.

The whole thing about suffering being the result of Adam's action is absolute bullshit and something I feel quite strongly about.

If God indeed did decide to punish the world and its 6bn population because of one man's sin then he is guilty of the greatest injustice ever seen in the world.

I'm not an atheist. i would descirbe myslef as agnostic in that I have a belief in God but not in any organised religion and don't base my beliefs and actions around any one religion. I generally think most religious theology doesn't make sense and contradicts itself far too often to be credible.

Just my 2 cents

[doddy]

If God indeed did decide to punish the world and its 6bn population because of one man's sin then he is guilty of the greatest injustice ever seen in the world.

Yup.

As the band Crass said: "Jesus died for his sins, not mine."

[Pferdestärken]

Religion, or blind faith, is the ultimate responsibility cop-out. In todays crazy world, where no-one will accept any individual responsibility, it should be making a major comeback.  :-/

Still, if it works for some people, and particularly if it helps them to avoid self harm, then that must at least go a little way to negate the massive amount of conflict, pain, torture, death and suffering inflicted in the name of religion over the years. It has to have some positives.

Anyways, thread hijack aside ...

nomoregyneplease - get real. Accept that only you can deal with what you have, and buckle down to get it sorted. Sh*t happens, it happened to you, step up to the mark like a man and deal with it. Wallowing in self pity isn't going to help. If you really want to get this sorted, accept that no fairy godmother is going to do it for you, then work your butt off.

And I don't mean wasting your time in the gym  - your priority, if you really feel this is a life or death issue, is to make enough money to be able to afford to deal with it. You should be working two or three jobs. It'll keep you away from the beach and the pool, and any number of other potentially embarrassing social positions, while at the same time making you cash. If you are not earning, you should be sleeping.

Extreme? As extreme as suicide?

Save every cent you can. Don't let anything get in your way. Before you know it you'll have the cash to get rid once and for all.

Good luck.

[Blarneystoner]

I'm not trying to turn you into an atheist. Don't flatter yourself to think I care about you enough. I'm merely pointing out why the "God" you worship simply cannot exist as we are led to believe he does - i.e., omnipotent and benevolent.

Even know what those words mean, Blarney?

My my, what a kind post. It sounds like you're upset, doddy. Would it cheer you up to know that Jesus still loves you even though you don't love him?

Perhaps someday you will have faith in God. Until then, all I can do is pray for people like you.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

I know that you don't care about me Doddy, but I care enough about you to pray for you.

[doddy]

My my, what a kind post. It sounds like you're upset, doddy. Would it cheer you up to know that Jesus still loves you even though you don't love him?

Perhaps someday you will have faith in God. Until then, all I can do is pray for people like you.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

I know that you don't care about me Doddy, but I care enough about you to pray for you.

Ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem. Try to actually debate my arguments, rather than debating my character.

It's good to know Jesus loves me. Did he love the occupants of Aushwitz? Did he love the Tutsis in Rwanda? Did he love Adolf Hitler? Did he love Idi Amin? Did he love the hundreds of thousands that he slaughtered?

Blarney - answer me just one question. Could your God have stopped all of the above from happening? Could your God stop AIDS, poverty, genocide, all of which are happening all over the world as we speak?

Please just give me a "yes" or "no" answer. Very simple question. One word, Blarney.

[Blarneystoner]

One word? yes.

God works in mysterious ways, doddy. Jesus, the son of God, was a sufferer himself. This life we live in is nothing compared to the eternity we spend in the afterlife.

[doddy]

One word? yes.

God works in mysterious ways, doddy. Jesus, the son of God, was a sufferer himself. This life we live in is nothing compared to the eternity we spend in the afterlife.

Haha. Man, I love the Christian ".. hmm, I can't actually argue with your point, sh*t, you're actually right.. GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS!!" cop-out line. Even if that IS true, how is that any justification for what's going on? Look at you, for example. God has worked in a mysterious way and given you big nipples - and you've freaked out about it, and tried to change it. Now, I'm not criticizing you for doing that, obviously - but if it's all part of God's work, why the hell have you tried to change it, and get all worked up about it? Now, consider how the result of your "mysterious ways" treament is gyne - what about people who, thanks to these "mysterious ways", have actual massive problems? What about the greatest crimes in history, caused by these "mysterious ways"?

What you're saying is, God works in "mysterious ways" and won't help, but then punishes people for eternity anyway? Good work, God. What a nice guy.

Is that really fair in itself? That we all go to hell for eternity if we don't accept something that by your own admission is.. "mysterious"? Doesn't seem it to me.

Why would God work in "mysterious ways"? It would be just as easy for him to work in "straight forward ways", and stop all the suffering I named above. He doesn't though, does he?

The basic, FUNDAMENTAL point I want you to grasp is: God, by your own admission, could help everyone and put an end to all suffering, with just a click of the fingers. He DOESN'T though.

If you saw a diabetic person on the brink of death due to missing an injection, and a guy was standing there with the necessary shot for him, and made the choice NOT to give it to him, what would you think of that guy? Total f*cking a$$hole, no? And that guy hasn't even claimed responsibility for the universe (and thus the diabetic's suffering), AND he'd actually have to go to some effort to help.. (God wouldn't.)

Blarney, I urge you to think for yourself. If you genuinely consider my arguments - you will realise that you have no rebuttal.

Does that not tell you something?

[Blarneystoner]

You dwell to much on our earthly existence. This life is but a blink of an eye compared to the eternity we spend after it.

God gave man the power of free will. You have to think about what the world would be like without ANY suffering. It would be like an episode of leave it to beaver.

If all these sufferers in the world are good people, they will be rewarded with eternal hapiness.

"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done." (Matthew 16:27)

[doddy]

Whatever really, Blarney. I've sadly got more important things to be getting on with right now. If worshipping a God who permits such suffering to occur for no apparent reason is your bag, go for it.

[Blarneystoner]

I will  

[SRK]

Whatever really, Blarney. I've sadly got more important things to be getting on with right now. If worshipping a God who permits such suffering to occur for no apparent reason is your bag, go for it.

even i used to thnk like u doddy.....i used to believe tht there isnt god,but when my suffering due to gyno reached to such an extent tht i cudnt bear it i thought of suicide. But coz of my gf who is so supportive of my condition i gave up the idea n on her advice started prayin n know wht life became a lot easier for me. Though my gyno has'nt improved , but i am a happy person now. Though i definitely wana go for surgery one day but as compared to my condition previously life has improved for me beyond my expectations.

I LUV U GOD!!!

[doddy]

Feeling better through prayer isn't proof of God. Obviously, it's a positive thing, but it's no proof of God. I don't believe in God for a number of reasons. I've yet to come across a remotely acceptable explanation of "the problem of evil" within Christian doctrine. "God works in mysterious ways" just doesn't cut it for me.

[jc71]

Doddy,

Why does God "allow" evil is one of the oldest philosophical puzzles that some men continue to struggle with.

One reason is that our Heavenly Father will not come knock on your door on a wonderful Sunday afternoon to prove his existence to you.

It all boils down to the "F" word... faith.  I see examples of God's existence every day, but people who don't have that faith will never see it.

When you live by faith, you do not need to rely upon intellect or your physical senses to experience the existence of God.

You've probably heard the expression, "I'll believe it when I see it."  What's probably more accurate is, "I'll see it when I believe it."

We all have free agency to choose our own actions. It isn't God that chooses evil, it's us humans who sometimes choose evil.

In the end, this post is not meant to start one of the many circular arguments often created when one talks about religion.

If you're a true believer (either way) there's probably little either one of us can say to make the other change their view.

[doddy]

Agreed. The "free will" explanation of God/evil falls flat on its face however, for two reasons.

1. Natural disasters. Which humans misuse of free will causes a tsunami to come and ruin millions of lives?

And the more important one:

2. Now the western society of which we are both a part has been obsessed with the idea of "free will" since the onset of capitalism, it's viewed largely as an inherently positive thing. God created the universe, and thus he created the doctrinal system we live in.. so he could have simply decreed that to experience true happiness, one must be a robot, never making errors (the errors which you have blamed for all the evil in the world).

Why did he not do that? Considering he controlled the doctrinal system (and still does, of course), he could have made the world (and, what with being God, could also make this change at ANY point), so that everyone is able to experience happiness and there would be no misuse of any "free will" - becuase we wouldn't have it!

"Free will" is only viewed as a positive thing because it empowers a person to seek happiness etc. God had (and still has) the power to bypass the process that "free will" enables, and create happiness straight away, for all.

He makes the choice not to do this. This is unforgiveable.

[tonysoprano]

agree with pferdestarken..and

doddy (the man) - one fukkin smart 18 yr old