A woman on the hypogonadism site putting down the issue of gynecomastia

[Hypo-is-here]

She told a man who had hypogonadism to stop moaning about a particular medication that resulted in a man and many other developing gynecomastia.  Read this below and see how you guys feel.  One thing that stands out to me is she says "gyno is the least of our worries".  When she is a woman who cannot develop and suffer this condition!!!

She used this comment to suggest a man should not mention possible side effects of TRT (or rather poor TRT where doctors don't keep and eye on E2 and prevent gynecomastia developing with ancillary meds if required.

Quote
The squeaky wheel gets the oil. Fighting for recognized treatment
protocols will do more for man kinda than posts that scare men away.
Unquote


Basically she thinks that men who have hypogondism should keep quite about any side effects of testosterone for fear of scaring men away from TRT.  She thinks that the end justifies the means of only presenting half the truth of TRT to men and that anything that is not good should not be mentioned to men.  At the same time she talks about self education etc

Quote
You just like to argue! Just for you, I pulled out 3 brands of
testosterone I have right here in front of me then made a trip to the
compound pharmacy to pick up Paul's script. Okay...the "package" has
the insert taped to the original box!! That should make you happier.
The fact is...the side effect is clearly exposed. The insert reads
pretty clearly to me and certainly does expose the side effects.
Whether it's to the customer's satisfaction who does endure side
effects is another story. We all need someone to blame. Try working
in the health field for a few thousand lives. I do believe you'd see
a difference balance. Physician's aren't out there choosing to cause
side effects and they can't always prevent them. For every poor
Physician out there, there are a 50 good ones.

If the general population knew or cared to learn (present company not
included otherwise ya'll would not be here), every "potential" risk
to every drug there is, there'd be many more sick people, lost lives
and preventable deadly disorders. Gyno would be the least of our
worries. I truely feel bad for people who need a drug that does
causes unwanted physical changes. I feel worse when people die
needlessly though. I do not stop and tell my patients of virtually
all the potential side effects to a life saving drug when they're
dying!!! I am obligated to try, make that effort to explain as much
as I can in non life threatening situations but, can I cover the
whole PDF? NO!!! It isn't possible to predict who all will react
negatively anyway.

IMHO, it is every capable adult's responsibility to take it upon
him/herself to become informed....before the fact, not when something
occurs. That way it isn't a big shock and we carry some of
the burden of risk. Best of all, many issues will be preventable.
We have to take some of the responsibility for our own healh care.
Physician's can't be held accountable for memorizing virtually every
potential side effect to every drug on the market. They can be held
to the task of tending preventable/improvable effects. Giving a man a
drug like Arimidex without knowing whether he'll need it is
irresponsible medicine. At least Doc's know what it is!!! Getting
insurance compaies to cover tests make running them more appealing to
both physicians and patients. Until then, guess we have to pay up and
put out the word! I know some of our forum members can't afford to
pay for tests and insurance companies won't. There is also the issue
of old school medicine holding on to old bliefs...which is where the
squeaky wheel comes in!!! Moerover, there is more than one way to
solve a problem usually. Phil has been squeaking his wheel about DIM
forever!! Thanks Phil! Alldaychemist sells anastrazol (sp) 14-1mg
pills for about 24 bucks. Paul uses them because its cheaper than our
co-pay! In otherwords..where there's a will. If a man can't get this
Doc to comply, the risk is all his but the fact is...it's possible.

Pissing and moaning about where lables are attached to a package is a
waste of time. If we're going to complain, then we should also find
positive ways to promote self direction. Again, Phil is an example of
someone trying :>) He always points to more than one path.

Vickie
Unquote


I replied with this below....let me know what your feeling are on this guys please.



I have a box of Testogel in front on me and there is ZERO information mentioning this side effect on the packaging. 

I have a box of Androgel in front of me that has ZERO information mentioning this side effect on the packaging.

I have Restandol tablets in front of me that has ZERO information mentioning this side effect on the packaging.

I have HCG by Organon in front of me that has ZERO information mentioning this side effect on the packaging.

Perhaps the packaging that you and Paul have via your pharmacy has this information on it and perhaps some pharmacies or locations ensure this information in on the packaging?

Certainly and factually ALL these medications DO NOT come with this warning- they just don’t.

Quote Vickie
The insert reads pretty clearly to me and certainly does expose the side effects.
Whether it's to the customer's satisfaction who does endure side
effects is another story. We all need someone to blame.
Unquote

When a physician/endocrinologist does NOT highlight the significance of this side effect and maybe doesn’t even mention it before prescribing and when there is often no warning of said side effect on the packaging and when the insert states the likelihood of developing the said side-effect is 3% when it is probably nearer to 30%;

Then YES men do have a right to be very unhappy!

But Vickie this is what really gets me on this issue.

It is totally inappropriate for you to be telling us about this issue, because you are not a man who can develop this condition and you have zero experience of suffering from it.  You have never had it, you have never lived with it, suffered from its debilitating psychological effects etc, never had to face significant surgery because of it and you as I have already said cannot suffer from the condition as a woman.

So what do you really know about this condition and its significance to men?  What authority can you speak with on this matter with us?

To my mind Vickie the answer is you can’t speak with any authority on this matter- sorry.

Separately from this, there is the issue of trying to sweep issues relating to TRT under the carpet, and of trying to have the truth hidden/not mentioned because you find part of the reality of TRT uncomfortable.  I am pro TRT and I am on TRT, but I am dead against misrepresenting the truth and only presenting a one-sided picture about TRT and related issues, I am not for lying to people by omission and that is what you are asking a man to do. 

There is no problem with women being here at the site to support their men etc, but it surley cannot be acceptable to my mind for you to be here telling a man to be quiet about detailing his own experiences and the side effects that he has incurred which is deeply distressing for men who develop it.

That can’t be acceptable to my mind.

I developed gynecomastia on Androgel, just as men here did.  I had to have an extensive 3 and a half hour operation to remove it and I suffered a great deal of pain as a result, that is to say nothing of the enormous psychological pain that the condition inflicted upon me for over a year and it is to not detail the fact that many men find this condition deeply disturbing psychologically and suffer in the same way. 

And why did I face this as other men have?

Because of inadequate health care from both the endocrinologist concerned, and a lack of awareness and openness from the pharmaceutical company.

Now please do not tell me that such men do not have the right to complain or voice their opinions on these issues relating to their medication and please don’t even post on a condition that you cannot develop as a women and debatably cannot psychologically relate to.

Quote Vickie
Try working in the health field for a few thousand lives. I do believe you'd see
a difference balance. Physician's aren't out there choosing to cause
side effects and they can't always prevent them. For every poor
Physician out there, there are a 50 good ones.
If the general population knew or cared to learn (present company not
included otherwise ya'll would not be here), every "potential" risk
to every drug there is, there'd be many more sick people, lost lives
and preventable deadly disorders. Gyno would be the least of our
worries.
Unquote

Sorry Vickie but this is irrelevant information and I must say as well, gynecomastia isn’t the least of “our worries”.  Because you are a woman and you CANNOT, do NOT and have NOT suffered from gynecomastia- as such you can NOT talk about its effects or significance with ANY authority at all.

Quote Vickie
I truely feel bad for people who need a drug that does
causes unwanted physical changes. I feel worse when people die
needlessly though. I do not stop and tell my patients of virtually
all the potential side effects to a life saving drug when they're
dying!!! I am obligated to try, make that effort to explain as much
as I can in non life threatening situations but, can I cover the
whole PDF? NO!!! It isn't possible to predict who all will react
negatively anyway.
Unquote

Nothing you are saying has any relevance whatsoever. 

The point is that;

A)   All people MUST be are allowed to tell the truth and detail their own story/personal experience at the site without being told to edit things others fin unpleasant.
B)   It is NEVER helpful to only tell half the story and try and misrepresent the truth by not telling the whole story and misrepresenting the full picture via omission (how could any man ever make a proper informed decision if they are not given ALL the pros and the cons of a given medication?)
C)   For people to avoid the pitfalls of TRT they need to know what they are and how they can be avoided, this can’t happen if you sweep them under the carpet with some misguided ends justifies the means outlook.
D)   By knowing the pitfalls, people can look to keep and eye on E2, and if required alter their medication in conjunction with a decent doctor and look to combat this side effect if encountered via ancillary meds or by taking a differing form of medication. 


Quote Vickie
IMHO, it is every capable adult's responsibility to take it upon
him/herself to become informed....before the fact, not when something
occurs. That way it isn't a big shock and we carry some of
the burden of risk. Best of all, many issues will be preventable.
We have to take some of the responsibility for our own healh care.
Unquote

This is just ridiculous Vicki

So when a man has just been diagnosed with low testosterone or hypopiituitary or with Parkinson’s, or with a heart defect etc etc.  They are supposed to on the spot become an expert in their own healthcare or as near dam it and understand what can take years to qualify in, by the time of their first prescription-

Immediately fully informed of all the ramifications of said condition and treatment and all potential issues?.

In a word that is Vicki that is- Ludicrous!

Even people who have a propensity for education and self awareness require time and the fact is the time required for even those people to become even basically informed is VASTLY greater than the amount of time such a person would have prior to being put on a given medication.

I have read every single published white paper on gynecomastia over the last 25 years and I have read FAR more endocrine books on andrology than 99.9% of people here and even I was not able to side step the inherent problem of a lack of time in this situation.

The majority of people would be even more at a loss.

Also on this note of self education and awareness, how can you say this when you yourself have not read widely on the subject?

I recall talking to you in the past about the books of Dr Malcolm Carruthers and Dr Eugene Shippen and you told me to stuff the books and had no wish to read them.  So you are hardly in a position to place blame at peoples doors in terms of self awareness are you?

Quote Vickie
Physician's can't be held accountable for memorizing virtually every
potential side effect to every drug on the market.
Unquote

I never said they could. 

Certainly endocrinologists and andrologists that claim to specialize in this field should be held accountable for not helping to prevent continued gynecomastia development when patients have told them of this symptom and the pharmaceutical company should be held responsible for ensuring that the side effect mentioned in accurately detailed and the statistically likelihood of the said side effect correct. 

If you have an supposed expert endocrinologist as opposed to a gp ignoring E2 in his patient and ignoring the complaint of gynecomastia then I feel that is malpractice.  If the pharmaceutical company are not adequately warning of this potential side effect (they are clearly not doing this in all areas and on all packaging) and the statistical likelihood is misrepresented then again that for me should open them up to a law suit.
There absolutely is a responsibility, obligations and duty of care in respect of said endocrinologists and pharmaceutical companies.


P.S

Anyone who has read Malcolm Carruthers second book Androgen Deficiency In The Adult Male would know from the pharmacology section in the book that Androgel as a product is KNOWN to cause significant elevations in E2, far more so than many other TR therapies.

Maybe it would have been an idea for the pharmaceutical company to warn treating physicians and endocrinologists of this FACT with a view to watching out for the side effect of gynecomastia- with a view to intervention with treatment if it developed?

Now that would have been an idea and I must say a darn reasonable one at that.

[moobius]

sounds like 2 hard heads butting egos


and YEAAAYYy Hypo-Is-Back!

[Hypo-is-here]

I appear now and again at odd times, rather than back, but the thought is appreicated thanks Moobius 

I guess the above could seem like two egos or dogma, maybe it is (though I would hope to think not), it is for other people to judge.

For me though it was the idea of a woman, telling a man who has gynecomastia because of testosterone treatment to keep quiet about it and suggesting that gynecomastia is not a big deal for "us", as though in some way it relates to her, which as a woman, directly it certainly does not.

I don't like seeing people dismiss the psychological impact of gynecomastia and feel that her position and thought process stems from the very fact that she cannot suffer from this condition or know the full implications of it on male psychology. 

A woman telling a man at a male hormonal site to be quite about his experience and suggesting gynecomastia is not so bad....that is way out of line in my opinion and I just wondered what people felt about such comments on here- you know given a lot of guys here have gynecomastia.

It is an awkward subject because women are welcome at male hormonal sites and presumably at this site, but I would think that such participation should be only in the setting of support and constructive comment and perhaps a less forward full on role, given the matters do not relate directly to women.  A difficult one in terms of political correctness and practicality.

What do people here think?

[skyhawk]

Yes hypo, I did see those posts on the hypoganadism group.

Hypo, thanx again for referring me to that site. You are 100% correct that I need to get my hormones in order before surgery, or I risk the gyne returning. I think about your advice everyday.

People like Phil have good experience with this male hormone thing and I listen to everything they have to say. Still gathering info from other peoples experiences. And searching for a good TRT doctor.

Skyhawk  (aka flyinresorts on yahoo group)

[skyhawk]

Hypo, if Vicki were to take a drug and grew a penis as a side effect, maybe then she would understand.

[Hypo-is-here]

Hypo, if Vicki were to take a drug and grew a penis as a side effect, maybe then she would understand.

I was thinking the growth of testicles would be more relevant as that is a secondary sexual characteristic.....I guess we get into very strange terrritory with such conversations though don't we 

But yes you can see exactly where I am coming from.

I just simply cannot see how a woman can fully relate to the concern and suffering that gynecomastia brings to the male psyche.  Even if very well meaning and considerate woman are still to my mind peering into the such problems and suffering as opposed to living them and that should change what is said on the matter.

[Hypo-is-here]

I saw a commercial a few months ago for avodart or propecia or something and at the end they said "side effects may include slight swelling of the chest". If I was someone considering taking that medication who didn't know any better I wouldn't think twice about it, very different from saying "side effects may include growth of female breast tissue"

Yes this is certainly an issue, your are perfectly correct.

P.S

Glad to have helped you a little Skyhawk...

[moobius]

what are her thoughts on women who take drugs (testosterone) to enhance their libido and end up with mustaches   should those women not complain if that possible side effect was not made clear to them?

that's something they would be VERY self concious about, something that they cannot easily hide in public, and something that would make them feel much less like a sexy woman

[Hypo-is-here]

My last post;

No Vicki

I have quite frankly had enough of your attitude.

The fact of the matter is- you that has been at fault here.

You told a man to edit his own experience and effectively ommit to
tell the truth because you felt uncomfortable about what he had to
say.

You had no right to do that Vicki- NONE.

You have spoken in a derisory manner about a condition- gynecomastia
that you have no knowledge of or experience of, you should NOT be
doing this Vicki!

And you have constantly thrown your weight about in terms of playing
the passive aggressive/the sex card and by emotionally raising issues
that have nothing to do with- what you did that was wrong.

I am not being lectured on the issue of gynecomastia when I have had
the condtion, suffered terribly from it, had a three hour operation
for and helped thousands of men with for over two years.

And I am not standing by while you are dismissive over the condition
and I am not standing by while you try and tell men what they can and
cannot say about their experience in living with hypogonadism and the
treatments involved and what they have caused.

I remind you Vicki this is a community that is primary for men and
the discussion of male health issues.

You are welcome here but it is in the context of supporting your
husband and not in respect of yourself. You have zero first hand
experience of the issues even though you have suffered in a differing
way.

Can you imagine if I was registered on a hysterectomy site or a
breast cancer site;

Can you imagine if I stated telling women as a man to edit their own
experience?

If I started downplaying the actual first hand experience of woman as
a man?

If I downplayed the side effects of a given treatment that I as a man
did not experience, with medications I did not take?

In basic langauge Vicki your taking the Mickey- stop it.

[Hypo-is-here]

The response I got from one person;


I'm sorry but I just cant sit back and watch this anymore, I was under
the impression that this forum has moderators? In reading the past
posts I don't see ANYTHING wrong with Vickie's point of view, but I do
see much wrong with this subject and many others that Chis_az has
placed himself into. I feel he is very disrespectful to Vickie in
particular with NO true reason! And disrespectful to many other people
in this forum over the year I have been a member.

It is disgusting to watch someone attempt to tare someone else down
due to their gender, I feel Vickie brings a very unique point of
view/perspective to this community and she does not deserve this type
of treatment!

I appeal to the moderator to please deal with this as quickly as
possible and remove poisons people from this forum. It helps not a
single person to have to listen to someone with such contempt for
others opinions.

We have enough "DRAMA" in our lives concerning our sickness we don't
need it in a support forum.

Thank you for you time,

Pat

Hypo quote....

The conclusions that some people can arrive at is strange in the extreme in my view.

In my opinion some of most of this has nothing to do with gender, the bit that does relate to gender is reverse sexism, as in sexism towards men.

No way in a million years would women, or female issues and related websites sites- lets say breast cancer sites say;

No way in a million years would they accept anything more than support from men, they would not accept men shouting down women with breast cancer or men acting as though they have the same experience as women.

As someone who has had cancer twice, I know that it can be in some respects as bad for the family of someone who has cancer.  I know that because I was supposed to be dead the first time round, I know how tough that was for my family.

But the fact is, as tough as things were for me and family, the situation for me and relatives is still VERY different.  They can worry all they like but the pain and ramification for me, but for the most part they are still mine- the pain is mine!

Likewise a girlfriend of a bloke with gynecomastia or low testosterone or both.....

Yes they are entitled to support there man, yes they end up knowing a bit more than the general public.....

But

The bottom line is there absolutely IS a difference between living it and supporting it.

And women should NOT be telling men about male health issues when they have no experience....It is remedial and unreasonable.  And likewise the same is true in the reverse polarity. 

I have no right as a man to offer anything other than support on woman’s issues....I have no right whatsoever to push my credentials as a man on women’s issues on a female website?

Am I right or wrong please explain?

We seem to have come full circle…..male sexism is deplored and not remotely tolerated, but female sexism seems to be alive and well.

Maybe I am missing something?

[merle]

What response are you referring to?

Merle

[Hypo-is-here]

The issue is of female postings on male issue realted sites and not understaning the first hand the experience of men with such issues.

Downplaying side effects like gynecomastia, via a lack of understanding of the effect it has on the male psyche etc.

We have a few women on the hypogondism site (low testosterone) .And one of them has been telling a man to keep quiet about his experience and truth....gynecomastia.

This woman has her own agenda and has not only told a man to shut up on a male site about hypogonadism, she has also blamed men for and side effects of treatment, saying that patients not endocrinologists or pharmaceutical companies should take responsibility for care, treatment and problems.

And she has dismissed gynecomastia as being the same as women having breasts.

This is staggering to have a woman do this on a male site.

P.S

I am going to say something that Merle and other gay men may find offensive, If it is offensive then I apologise.

I think that gay men can sometimes argue certain exact same points with greater moral authority than hetro guys can.  You have a certain crap agenda, where people push the sexism or Misogynist card at men, that gay guys can often side step and take the same logic and show it up for the rubbish it is.

Agree?   

I still can't believe I have been called for a sexist, for suggesting the difference exists between men as sufferers and women as supporting a condition?

I have many women as friends, and two gay guys are mates...alll tend to think of me as intelligent and sensitive.  No one thinks of me as being unfair or anything else  and they all knwo I have spent lot of time trying to help people. 

 





 

[merle]

Overall I don't disagree with what I have been reading from you. I thought there was a comment that you thought the moderator should be paying attention to, I would guess in rereading that the comment was for the other site. A bit confusing, but I am beginning to understand what is happening.

In my own childhood experiences with gynecomastia, the girls were as harsh or worse than the guys. I have had women reporters not get it. There distaste or lack of empathy for men was spilling out all over the place. I have had to related it back to their experience for them to even begin to get the pain of what was happening.

We have a word in our society for men hating women, but we do not have the reverse of women hating men. It is pretty common and something we don't want to talk about. I work with men that were sexually abused as children. It is my other speciality. Many of them were abused by women and their mothers.

Only in the last few years are we really talking about female abusers and even then it is often not taken seriously.

Men who hit or slap women are taken to jail. If a woman hits a man or another woman it is not even thought about.

Women get a free ride on a lot of things. In my experience they are no more empathic or understanding than men. They get better press.

So back to your point about a gay male perspective. I think that we can have an easier time getting past the socialization and the need to get laid by women and can see some of the interactions more clearly as a result. Women are as awful as men. It looks different, but the end result is the same.

On the other side, men are as wonderful as women. They simply don't get the good press that women do. If we ever balance this all out, we might just come up with a decent world.

Merle