Book worth buying?

[Ffurg]

I have a saying for people like Graham and it goes like this:

Don't bother arguing with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and win on experience.

On a further note, this site does tend to have a pro-surgery feel to it. None of us though take anything away from those who choose to accept the condition.

But the bottom line here is surgery, whilst not always 100% successful is by far the most effective treatment for resolving gyne. And that's why people here who have a little common sense like to explore the surgical route. And those who choose to go for it have my complete support. And those who don't, like H3 still have my support. The only people I don't have any time for are people like you Graham, who have a completely warped sense of reality. And try to pass your hatefull nonsense garbage onto others.

[Hypo-is-here]

Hypo,

Don't oversimplify what I'm trying to say. Education of certain matters for the right people is what I'm actually encouraging.

Oh I see education is ok for THE RIGHT PEOPLE What complete claptrap.  Either education is a good thing or it is not, the way you talk you would think it was upto you to decide who can obtain information and who can't.

Gyno is not a condition like testicular cancer where 'educating' the public actually helps save lives in any real sense. If you think it is, then you are sorely mistaken. It is an embarrassing condition that is not life-threatening.

Really well you need further education my friend

I have reached out to many people on this site with a view to encouraging endocrine investigations and pathology.  I have done this because in a significant minority of cases gynecomastia is a symptom of a more serious underlying disorder.

If I hadn't found out about gynecomastia I wouldn't have linked up the symptoms that enabled me to find out about testosterone deficiency.  I have osteoporosis in my back from 13 years of undiagnosed untreated hypogonadism.  But at least now it is being treated- thanks to self education- gynecomastia, putting that name to what I had was one of the first pieces in the jigsaw.

If I hadn't have found out about gynecomastia, I might never have found out about hypogoandism and I could have died in later life from complications of osteoporosis (the silent killer).  

With long term untreated hypogonadism there is also a significant increased statistical risk of diabetes with one in every three men with type 2 diabetes having hypogonaidm.  Then there is the increased statistical risk of Cardio Vascular disease, stroke and Alzheimer’s.

With 10% of all gynecomastia sufferers having hypogonadism according to the latest research, with gynecomastia being labeled an associated condition and the risk inherent if hypogonadism goes undiagnosed!!  And that is before you start considering the 8% who have underlying liver disease or 3% with testicular tumors or the 2% with
hyperthyroidism or those with prolatcinoms, Klinefelters renal disease etc.

Gynecomastia might be a benign condition, but it is often a symptoms of an underlying problem in 25% of all gynecomastia sufferers according to the latest reseach.

So education is needed here not ignorance.

[Ffurg]

With 10% of all gynecomastia sufferers having hypogonadism according to the latest research, with gynecomastia being labeled an associated condition and the risk inherent if hypogonadism goes undiagnosed!!  And that is before you start considering the 8% who have underlying liver disease or 3% with testicular tumors or the 2% with
hyperthyroidism or those with prolatcinoms, Klinefelters renal disease etc.

Gynecomastia might be a benign condition, but it is often a symptoms of an underlying problem in 25% of all gynecomastia sufferers according to the latest reseach.

So education is needed here not ignorance.

As much as I dislike Graham's stance on this arguement, quoting totally nonsense figures like these does nothing to support your arguement.

Virtually all cases of gynecomastia are idiopathic (cause unknown) Just because you happen to be the statistical anomaly here (and the only member of this board with hypoganidism dont start trying to convince others they too are suffering the same fate.

After all your scare mongering and convincing hundreds of people here to get their blood work tested by an endocrinologist, exactly how many have come back with hypogonadism? Because personally I can't recall a single case.

Hypo-chondriac perhaps  

And no Graham, i'm not a newbie, I've been a member of this board for a hell of a lot longer than you have, and i've posted far more threads than you. Not that makes any difference to the nonsense you portray, or the advice i've given.

[oldgynodude]

As I said before, many people DO know about gyno, have known about it for a LONG time. As I also stated before, the condition people have been LONG poking fun of may not have had the name gynecomastia known publicly to them, but they knew about it nonetheless. Many of us have been embarrased about this since teenage years, and that itself shows this has been around for a long time, lol.

Sheesh, the way some people talk you'd think gyno is something no one knows about or is something that should be hush hush. Lots and lots of people know about it, again maybe not by its scientific name but they know about it nonetheless (we've all heard the derogatory names, man boobs, chi chi's, etc. etc.).

That's why so many of us go out of our way to avoid situations where we had to take off our shirts, at the beach, gym, etc. etc. If this was some super secret condition that no one knew about, then why would we avoid such situations? If no one knew about this condition, then why should us sufferers have to worry about exposing our bodies? But we do, so again to say that bringing attention to this makes it worse is a falsehood.

And no this isn't about the insurance companies, that's just one thought that came to my mind, since apparently in some countries it is covered by insurance. Bringing attention is so that the sufferers out there know they aren't alone and that there are options if they so choose, or they can live with it which is fine also.  One thing I will note, I have a friend that works for a company that has one of those flex medical plans where they take money out of your paycheck pre tax in order to fund medical procedures. One of the things covered is vision correction surgery, but one that is not is gyno. Is vision correction necessary? Absolutely not, and many, many people won't do it and there's been a LOT of websites and books dedicated to this. Is gyno surgery necessary? Again, no, so why the difference, is having to wear glasses or contacts psychologically worse than having gyno? You tell me.

[Hypo-is-here]

As much as I dislike Graham's stance on this arguement, quoting totally nonsense figures like these does nothing to support your arguement.

Virtually all cases of gynecomastia are idiopathic (cause unknown) Just because you happen to be the statistical anomaly here (and the only member of this board with hypoganidism dont start trying to convince others they too are suffering the same fate.

After all your scare mongering and convincing hundreds of people here to get their blood work tested by an endocrinologist, exactly how many have come back with hypogonadism? Because personally I can't recall a single case.

Hypo-chondriac perhaps  

And no Graham, i'm not a newbie, I've been a member of this board for a hell of a lot longer than you have, and i've posted far more threads than you. Not that makes any difference to the nonsense you portray, or the advice i've given.

You take ignorance to a new level even beyond that of our Graham.

The statistics I have quoted are facts- end of story, so sad when people who are so ignorant think they know it all after being here five minutes and making a handfull of posts.

If you want I will provide the evidence that states the case.

I have known dozens of people to come through the site with hypogoandism from various causes including prolactinomas etc. You have no concept of the facts whatsoever.

Like I said if you want the facts just ask and I shall provide them for you

As for Graham,

How dare you try and beliittle the very important underlying conditions that exist for which gynecomastia is a symptom- including my own.

I have lost everything now with you, you have no respect at all you are lower than low.

[jc71]

You take ignorance to a new level even beyond that of our Graham.

One of the top 5 best quotes in gyne.org history.  

Absolutely Hilarious.

[Tim_Hortons_Coffee]

A bit off topic at this point but I just remembered to ask...

Merle, are you actually still intending on going to Israel? Things look rather insane there at the moment and I doubt they're going to clear up anytime soon. I'm sure you know the situation well so I won't rant but really that sounds risky.

Good luck with the second surgery, I have one coming up myself. Cheers.

[merle]

I am reconsidering. I bought the cancellation insurance. Not because I feel in any danger, but because I don't think it will be much fun. I am looking for a vacation, not an endless debate on war and never ending tension.

I am currently considering Costa Rica. I am open to suggestions.

Merle

[headheldhigh01]

i'd rather go dust the book off and comment on it directly, maybe soon, but a few comments.  

graham wrote:  In fact, that's probably the reason it's not selling so well.

i doubt that had anything to do with success or lag at all.  

merle wrote:  I want my life back.

i think these five words sum up the majority of men's experience with gyne rather nicely.  good wishes for the op and trip both.  

graham wrote:  I simply don't believe that you should encourage others to have surgery simply on the basis of your own success with it.

you'd be very popular with the bush and "patriot act" crew back here in the states, that doesn't much sound like a belief in the free and open marketplace of ideas to me.  even one datum is data, and most people here read their experience in the light of others' too.  and you imply you have no business sharing your own thoughts via the internet, since they are rooted in even less foundation than first-hand experience.  and, by that token, you also allow too that had you ever had a failure, above merely speculating about them, you would have no business sharing such perspective.  

graham wrote:  What I don't think will help is trying to inform the public at large about a condition that most of us are not even comfortable talking about.

i would have fidgeted like nothing to see a gyne documentary back in the 80's, but it would have spared me all hell.  good for merle for getting the word out, and i personally bought it in part in appreciation for his setting up the site (not that he's rolling in cash as a result).

graham wrote: Gyno is not a condition like testicular cancer where 'educating' the public actually helps save lives in any real sense. If you think it is, then you are sorely mistaken.

the point you probably feel safest about is the one i think you miss the most widely.  gyne is vastly more insidious and destructive precisely because unlike cancer, it does most of its work unseen; it is the cancer of the living dead.  i'll pass over the suicide question, significant as that is, to go straight to saying i think you need to vastly expand your concept of destroyed life, as gyne in ignorance can reach much wider than a simple headstone in a cemetary.  i speak from my own experience i have seen echoed in part in the accounts of others too. gyne is a little like a neutron bomb:  it destroys the life and leaves the outward structures intact, but since that is all you look on, you appear to deny anything ever detonated.  

Ffurg wrote:  But the bottom line here is surgery, whilst not always 100% successful is by far the most effective treatment for resolving gyne.

agree.

Ffurg wrote:  And those who choose to go for it have my complete support. And those who don't, like H3 still have my support.

well said, and i'd bet all of us here, maybe graham included, agree.  in fact i have never yet chosen not to, i might still get my chance, it's perhaps just a quirk of weird circumstances that i haven't.  

hypo wrote:  Oh I see education is ok for THE RIGHT PEOPLE Wink ... Either education is a good thing or it is not, the way you talk you would think it was up to you to decide who can obtain information and who can't.

i completely agree, however this has humorously ironic overtones for a discussion we once had on press freedoms    

graham wrote:  Who the hell are you but a friggin' noob?

giving people the flipout you were promising to deny them, eh?  i actually think you're smart enough to know how absolutely unworthy a level of post you let yourself drop to here.  

graham wrote:  Next, let's all examine our stool for signs of blood - why? Because some people have discovered they had colon cancer. It's our duty to educate.

same deal again.  and it's not like ignorance is preferable.  

graham wrote:   This is so lame. Do you think people with gyno are blind? They can see that other people have it too. Just like the thousands of us who found our way here, the thousands out there can too.

graham, this is waaaaaay off base.  i never found this site till i was thirty-seven, and i read and get around much more than most.  nor was i the first to mistakenly assume it was a cancer in remission.  

graham wrote:    So let's keep reminding them so everywhere a guy with gyne goes, there will be somebody who might potentially make fun of him.

to call this dicey logic would flatter it.  there's a foundation for kids with cleft palate out there, but they must have no business putting out info or pictures since, exposing them to ridicule,  that will make things worse, not better.  

i think the thread would do a lot better returning to the subject of the book itself than theorizing about its desirability, degenerating further into cheap jabs at other people as noobs (like recency matters one fetid dingo's kidney anyway, as a great uk author once put it).  no you shouldn't have to absolutely have read the book like me, but i do agree it would make a post a bit more credible.  

[headheldhigh01]

I have no problem with people sharing their experience. However - and I don't know if you're intentionally ignoring what you know to be true - many people here literally encourage and instruct others to get surgery on that basis. This is simply wrong.

i just disagree not only regarding surgery but also freedom of expression, i think anyone in the world should be free to advise for or against it, just as they are free to consider such advice and make choices -- and your own freedom to do so is imho contingent on recognition of others' right to also.  and depending on the case, though most of the time in my view, arguing against an op could be even more destructive as you fear arguing for could be.  

I'm confused. Did you not know you had large breasts and that it was awkward? Did you need a documentary or book or a front page article in the newspapers to realize this? How about a trip to the doctor or the library? Perhaps you think it's better to just scream it out loud to the whole world so the minority who are deeply troubled by it will know its name and only then get help.  

not all cases are extreme ones, and i've said before i thought it was a cancer in remission, probably was around 5 cm or so in high school, more later.  learning simply its name was an enormous revelation that pulled the plug on my bathtub of ignorance.  i visited one doc who if he knew might have given my parents the usual "it'll go away line" but said nothing to me.  but in sum, yes, the shouting would be useful.  hell, just telling phys ed teachers would go miles, but i think people should know for themselves.  

By 'getting the word out' did you even consider how many innocent people will be unnecessarily put through the same hell you just described?

as you could infer from my wishing i'd had the embarassing experience of seeing something on tv, or my allusion to cleft palate awareness raising going on today, i did, and on reflection decided, differently from you, that it would be far preferable.  

Again picking just on me. Did you even notice he (Ffurg) called me an 'idiot' first? I don't see you admonishing him for that.  

my bad, and i think baiting hypo as he's done is self-defeating.  on the other hand, i try not to let my standards drop to match, or escalate to worse, every time others do otherwise.  an approach worth considering.  

Neither is hypochondria.

true, though not all diffusion of gyne info amounts to that, on which subject we've already disagreed.  

With our current and future efforts, kids as young as 10 are finding their way here. Way to go.  

i'm all for it, it's not like they'll be going making autonomous decisions anyway.  and i wish there were some way i could make you understand the phenomenal difference in my life running into this as a kid would have made for me.  it is, irrespective of however much you might esteem your imagination, beyond what you would imagine.  

There's no mistaking if you have a cleft palate. There's plenty of mistaking if you have gyne. Even some doctors will tell us that we don't and we wouldn't believe them.  

i'd bet there are marginal cases of cp too.  but more importantly, i believe most gyne goes unidentified, AND the case with doctors is exactly the reverse, as you can observe from accounts here:  they tell people it'll go away, they tell people (with big cases) they're just vain and body dismorphic, etc etc.  denial, minimalization, dismissal.  in my view that's the REAL outrage.  

An irrefutable argument - on the surface at least. In reality, it's a catch 22. I can't read the book (to comment on it) until I buy it but it's not worth buying based on what the author himself (and others) have told me about it. I guess I can't believe what any of them say either. I have to read it for myself?

maybe it's tougher from the uk.  as someone said much, though not all, of its message could be garnered from reading here, so you make a simple decision from the parameters you describe, but it's probably still cheaper than an evening out and i didn't mind a tiny boost for the author.  

okay so returning to the subject question, i still haven't gone flipping back through it, but in short while i might have made suggestions here or there, i for one don't regret buying the book a bit and i'm glad he did it.  

it's just well concealed in my joint away from the regular shelves where anyone could see it    

[Grrrrr]

I can't believe your all giving Graham such a hard time.

If you read through his posts in this thread carefully, his words are sheer brilliance.

Keep up the good work Graham.

I too think this pro-surgery stuff is utter nonsense.

I was once bothered by my gyne, but am I going to give some surgeon $5000!!! NO WAY.

There's just no need. I fortunately found a much cheaper way of coping with gynecomastia.

For Under $10 US dollars, yes under $10.00 you can do what I did. Pop down to your local hardware store and buy a large bucket and a bag of building sand.

Now everytime I find myself thinking about gynecomastia, I just stick my head in the bucket of sand for 10 minutes. And say say 'sha la la la la, sha la la la la' over and over 50 times. It works amazingly.

This surgery stuff is just ridiculous. Shame on all of you for even thinking about it, let alone promoting it.

And if you hear a negative comment about gyne, moobs etc, if you dont have your bucket of sand with you (personally I carry mine everywhere in a wheelbarrow) Just stick your fingers in your ears, rock your head backwards and forwards and make groaning noises until the pain goes away.

Now leave Graham alone.

[Grandpa Bambu]

A bit off topic at this point but I just remembered to ask...

Not to worry dude, most of the thread is 'off topic' anyways....  

John.