Do you belive in god?

[buccsfan]

Damn FF how did you pull that off? BMW $500 jeans? I dont sell enough to buy all of that. Like I said I havent sold any in over a month. Anyway I only sell a little bit every once in a while to help me pay for something I really need. As soon as I am healed up I will be getting a job. I figure that as long as I dont get really big into selling drugs I wont get busted. I dont be tryng to get rich, I just like to make a few extra hundred dollars a month. Anyway we are way off topic, lets get back to God, but um FF let me know how you did what you did. Tell me about your setup.  

[headheldhigh01]

boy this one's all over the place.  agree with getting back on topic, but want to add one thought.  i used to live in a city neighborhood with dope pushing common as cracked sidewalks.  the reason imho drug sales get the rep they do is that at the bottom line it's -- no easier way to say this -- blood money.  that hundred bucks in cash came out of a five hundred by people who usually had serious habits and were going to get the money anyway they could.  so they smash some $200 windshield (and make somebody late to a ten grand meeting) and take ten cd's they sell for twenty bucks.  they roll some drunk who then can't even buy a slice or grab the bus to a shelter.  even the suburb guys might have stolen it out of mom's purse, etc.  problem with drugs (won't stay on the soapbox long here) is in greater or lesser measure, fast or slow, they almost invariably subvert self-control and leave a path of waste unseen.  always liked the line by the comedian who said, "i never knew how bad my drug problem was till i caught myself following all these cars around that had 'dealer' on the license plates"  

not to imply nobody knew this, but drug money always has a history.  so a thought.  

[Freedom.Finally]

H3, not that you are wrong, but in my case it wasn't relevant.  I sold "designer drugs."  These are the kind of thing you only do once or twice a week.  I didn't sell anything that went up your nose, in your lungs, or in your veins.  I didn't run with the crowd that did addictive-type drugs.
In any event, if I had it to do all over again needless to say I would not do it.  Hindsight is always 20/20.

[UKgyne]

not to imply nobody knew this, but drug money always has a history.

You see, this is the problem.  People who don't do any drugs themselves or know close friends who responsibly do drugs only get to see the 'bad' things about drug taking.  They don't see the millions of people who have absolutely no trouble taking drugs.  No one at work knows I smoke pot, take pills and cocaine, nor that I used to do acid and speed.  How would they know?  I do it in moderation and at home with friends [the days of me going out raving are gone, unfortunately].  

Anyway the point of quoting HHH is that not all drug money has history.  I work as an analyst, my mates are all professionals - lawyers, bankers etc, and we all earn a good salary.  All our money is 'clean'.  I wouldn't want to guess what % is 'clean' or 'dirty' but certainly I have used drugs and been involved in the drug scene for 10+ years and nearly everything I have seen is 'clean'.  So don't stereotype .

Regarding religion, I certainly don't believe in a God of any description.   In my humble opinion it's all a load of rubbish [no offence to anyone of a religious inclination ].  I can't understand how anyone can believe in it.  

FreedomFinally - have you ever seen this email that did the rounds a while ago:

"Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:


Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?  Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging."

And for anyone who's interested in the contradictions, absurdities, cruelties, mysogyny, etc ad infinitum in the bible, you should peruse the Skeptics Annotated Bible.

Mike

[Freedom.Finally]

Regarding religion, I certainly don't believe in a God of any description.   In my humble opinion it's all a load of rubbish [no offence to anyone of a religious inclination ].  I can't understand how anyone can believe in it.

Surely, UK, I have given you enough information in the Iraqi Prisoner Abuse thread for you to at least understand how anyone can believe in it.  Perhaps you don't agree with the info I provided, but surely it is anything but trivial and rubbish.  It is intelligent, well thought out, and makes much better sense than any of the other theories floated around (big bang, evolution, etc.).

FreedomFinally - have you ever seen this email that did the rounds a while ago:

"Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who...

LOL!!!  

Yes, I saw that.  And I can appreciate the humor in it.  Here is what the writer of that letter is missing.  We do not live under the theocratic system that Israel did.  Therefore, the context on all of that is lost.
We were discussing homosexuality in another thread, and I demonstrated from the New Testament how it is wrong. Old Testament laws had a specific purpose and context.  This is called dispensationalism.

Anyways, I want this thread to go back to people's thoughts on God, and not my debating/defending this and that (although I'm quite happy to do it).
Let's start a new Christianity thread if we want to go deeper into all of this

[UKgyne]

Surely, UK, I have given you enough information in the Iraqi Prisoner Abuse thread for you to at least understand how anyone can believe in it.  Perhaps you don't agree with the info I provided, but surely it is anything but trivial and rubbish.

Yes, I stand corrected, you're right - I can understand how people can believe in it.  I just think they're mad!

For me though, the main reason I think people believe in religion is either through fear of going to Hell or because it nicely answers all the horrible questions in life [Why are we here?  What are we for? What happens when we die?  Etc etc].   I don't need those answers though - I have no belief whatsoever in God nor do I fear death.

Mike

[Freedom.Finally]

And to FF if you didn't quite catch the moral of the story can you please stop quoting religious references in your future posts. It's pointless and laughable.

Gruff

Ummm.  What reference are you talking about?  I fear it is you who missed the point.  With all due respect, you would be well served to stop commenting on things of which you know nothing about.
Hint, Hint... when you see the word "Gruff" before a statement/question then you know it is pointed at you.  That would be an appropriate place to respond.

[Freedom.Finally]

Well, at least that was my humble uneducated interpretation anyway,

Gruff

I took it to simply be that the writer was trying to ridicule the Bible and thus invalidate it as an authoritative source.

And, since that was posted for all to see, and since most people reading it here would not understand the context of the laws, I felt justified in explaining that there is a perfectly clear explanation of them.  I didn't go into depth on the subject, but merely pointed out that although they appear absurd to us, they made perfect sense to those who were under these laws.
If you ever travel the world you will find that customs differ from culture to culture.  For example, if you ever go to India you would not want to walk around in shorts.  Only young boys walk around in shorts.  It would be like a man in the US or UK walking around in a diaper.  But, you would not know why the people were all laughing at you.
So, you see, you need to understand a matter before you stand in judgment over it.
I have refrained from posting bible verses, but I thought this one rather fitting:

Pro 18:13  If one answers a matter before he hears (understands) it, it is folly and shame to him.

[Freedom.Finally]

The point of the letter was not to discredit the bible, or at least i do not believe that was it's main aim. If it was it would have been sent to the pope, a church leader or some other senior religious figure.

I guess I can go along with your interpretation, as I don't see it fundamentally different from what I was saying.  Essentially, the writer was listing other laws, which to us seem absurd, in an effort to show that the Bible is flawed, thereby invalidating it as an authoritative source.  I think we were in essence saying the same thing in a different way.  No problems on my end with that.

You state i know nothing of what is being discussed and therefore should remain silent, perhaps it is actually you who struggles to grasp the full concept of what is being discussed  

Negative.  Please don't put words in my mouth.  Here is how it transpired.
UK posted that letter in this thread.  I laughed, as well as did everyone else with half a sense of humor who read it, and then quickly explained that although it seems absurd to us, to the people it was written to it was anything but absurd.  Just like it may be absurd to us to have to wear long pants outside when it is 105 degrees and 98% humidity in India, yet that is their culture.
You then stated:

And to FF if you didn't quite catch the moral of the story can you please stop quoting religious references in your future posts. It's pointless and laughable.

So, who was trying to silence whom here?  Do you see your own inconsistency?
And to tell someone not to make a religious reference in a "God thread" is ludicrous.  Come on, now.

Anyway even if this is the case i will not make any attempt to silence you as this is an internet forum, and the thing about internet forums FF if you haven't noticed is they are a great leveller. Young or old, rich or poor, educated or uneducated it makes no difference, we all have the same rights to post our opinions however misguided we may feel others are  

Gruff

As shown above, you should have gone back and read your previous post to me before you held yourself up as the defender of free-speech.

Anyways, let's move on.  Neither is the better, nor the worse.  We're here to exchange ideas and this topic just happens to by "my major" in life.

[Freedom.Finally]

Nah FF let's not move on  

OK

Asking you to refrain from posting thousands of words of bible references is not an attempt to silence you. After all what i am interested in is YOUR opinion and not the bibles. Again you fail to grasp the concept.  

I assume what you mean by "thousands of words" was in reference to this.

"We do not live under the theocratic system that Israel did.  Therefore, the context on all of that is lost.
We were discussing homosexuality in another thread, and I demonstrated from the New Testament how it is wrong. Old Testament laws had a specific purpose and context.  This is called dispensationalism."

That was only 51 words. A mere paragraph.  Furthermore, that information is factual information about the Bible.  You will find it in the annals of books compiled by historians of the time.  It is simply history.  It is not debatable.  Not any more than WWII is, anyways.

And yes you did try to silence me with your comment of : "With all due respect, you would be well served to stop commenting on things of which you know nothing about."

Gruff

Very well, but remember the importance of context.  I stated that in response to your critique of my answer to UK.  UK asked me a direct question and I answered.  Why would you try and regulate my conversation with another?  Hmmmm.  

Now, in the famous words of Rodney King, "can't we all just get along?"

Shane, sorry about your thread, bro.  Gruff won't let me be.  

[Freedom.Finally]

Oh and as far as your comment goes that you feel there is a correlation between your interpretation and mine of why that letter was written, and why it goes far beyond your limited comprehension of simply "discrediting the Bible"

Slow down and type complete sentences Otherwise, it is easy for others to misunderstand you.  And that would start a whole new argument  

I fear unless you can try to muster up all your intellect and delve deeper into the reasoning behind the motivation of the the letter writing and sending, i feel a debate with you is pointless. If your unable to infer the authors obvious intentions then how can we possibly hope to have an worthwhile debate if you cannot grasp the simplest of concepts  

Gruff

Gruff, at ease, soldier.  
Are you presuming to know the motivation of the writer?  How presumtuous of you.  I have presumed no such thing.  I have simply concluded my opinion of the writer's motivation.  How can you presume to know what is going on in the writer's mind?

You should get a job at the circus... or with Latoya Jackson (Psychic Friend's Network).

And, just for laughs.... Again, Gruff said:

if your (sic) unable to infer the authors (sic) obvious intentions...

If the intentions are so obvious, why would one need to infer them?  Do you not know what the word "infer" means?  

[Freedom.Finally]

Yes i am presuming to know the motivations of the writer, it's bloody obvious  

I assume you mean you know the "motivations" of the writer.  Again, this is impossible unless the writer tells you.  You can conclude what you think the motivation is, but you cannot be certain unless the author tells you.  But, I still don't see how your or my interpretation is that much different.

Oh dear this is truly pointless...

Agreed, but it was quite amusing while it lasted

Lets just move on, Gruff

DONE.

[Freedom.Finally]

I should have known better FF,

Never argue with an idiot, they will only drag you down to their level and then win on experience.  

Good strategy there, Gruff.  When you can't win on logic, resort to insults.  When you can't defeat the message, attack the messenger.  That always gets 'em, eh?

Really though FF quoting my text and adding any (sic) points where you feel i have gramatically erred. How low must you stoop  

That was added for the sake of humor.  I'm sure I make my share of spelling errors. I'm surprised you didn't catch my bloody obvious intent, Mr. Mindreader
p.s. I don't "feel" you erred, you "did" err.

p.s This is my final post on this matter, this thread is going nowhere. Please feel free to have the last word, i know you won't sleep without it  

Yes, I will continue to address any inaccuracies that you present.  And, you won't be able to preempt me with a statement such as that.

[hypo]

hmm

Don't know why i'm here?

Religion has caused more wars and death on this planet than most things hasn't it?


I guess I agree with Bill Hicks take on this one.

Dinosaurs?

I think i'll leave now:)

[Freedom.Finally]

Religion has caused more wars and death on this planet than most things hasn't it?

Actually, it is the corruption of man that has caused the wars and death that you refer to. Often, it is motivated by insatiable greed and desire for power.