Books

[hypo]

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Marlow who is even on a higher plane of intellect.
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I do not think Marlow can be compared to Shakespeare!

At least not IMHO.

[brother_gyne]

thats why I mentioned the film- that portrays the text as a gang language . Tricks like putting the word sword onto the guns worked very well.

The one thing that can't be done is to make Shakespeare's jokes funny- they are not and never will be. They are the litmus test and show that the text is dated and difficult.  Anyone who disagrees trying putting one (his best if you like) on the joke thread - see who laughs.

Marlowe is sexier.  

[zjab58]

Hypo- I never said that you don't get the language. I am just trying to have a conversation. Except you do tend to take things as pesonal attacks. Even when, as in this case, the attack was directed elsewhere.
Marlow can very well be compared with Shakespeare. You have to have a wider knowledge of Literature or a major set of footnotes to get the allusions to mythology that he makes very often. I don't think that Marlow's poetry can be compared to Shakespeare. Will's was by far better.
I can see your point about the language. Shakespeare had a vocab that was phenominal and beyond that of most academics today. But one point I will make is that Shakespeare was not university educated. He never went past grade school. Everyone who went to school at all had a working knowledge of Greek mythology and complex works like Ovid's Metamorphisis. That just isnt the case today.
I'm just saying that as a culture we don't seem to care about literature as much and along with several other factors we are a less inteligent society becasue of it.

[zjab58]

The one thing that can't be done is to make Shakespeare's jokes funny

The only way to do it is to draw a diagram of why it is funny. Then you loose the laugh anyway. I agree I can't stand Shakespeare's comedies.

[brother_gyne]

we are a sophisticated culture - very sophisticated. Just because it is based on electronic media it does not make it dumb. Shakespeares public were also sophisticated . We don't get their jokes, that doesn't mean they were clever we are stupid. They would not get our jokes, they would not get a lot of things today.
I am sure that Shakespeare would be a Big Brother fan for example which is often held up as the death of modern culture.

[hypo]

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Hypo- I never said that you don't get the language. I am just trying to have a conversation. Except you do tend to take things as pesonal attacks.
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It was not my intention- my language let me down on this occasion.

I apologise if you feel I am always like this/dogmatic.

I am resolute in certain matters which can be seen as being dogmatic, but I hope to be on the right side of the divide concerning those issues where I have strong principles.

Here though- my language let me down.

My initial response looks defensive and hostile, something I did not wish to convey at all.

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Even when, as in this case, the attack was directed elsewhere.
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I readily acknowledge as above.

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Marlow can very well be compared with Shakespeare. You have to have a wider knowledge of Literature or a major set of footnotes to get the allusions to mythology that he makes very often. I don't think that Marlow's poetry can be compared to Shakespeare. Will's was by far better.
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I was just speaking in the broad brush stroke of plays, as in,I don't think Marlow can realistically be compared to Shakespeare when it comes to his actual plays (despite Marlow’s talent and historical importance)

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I was just speaking in the broad brush stroke of plays, as in I don't think Marlow can realistically be compared to Shakespear when it comes to his actual plays (despite Marlows talent and hisorical importance)
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Oh sorry I have just seen you agreed in this sense.

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I can see your point about the language
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Indeed.

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Shakespeare had a vocab that was phenomenal and beyond that of most academics today
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A different world, but certainly his eloquence when it cameto language was phenomenal.

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But one point I will make is that Shakespeare was not university educated. He never went past grade school. Everyone who went to school at all had a working knowledge of Greek mythology and complex works like Ovid's Metamorphisis. That just isnt the case today.
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Who was Shakespeare?- is a debate that exists.  

Some academics think that Shakespeare was Marlow, others think he was Bacon, some of course think he was simply his namesake.

If Shakespeare was indeed who he appeared to be, his education was not that of a university fellow, instead he was a natural genius.

I understood but disliked the Metamorphosis and preferred other greek authors like Homer,

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I'm just saying that as a culture we don't seem to care about literature as much and along with several other factors we are a less inteligent society becasue of it.
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I agree entirely.

[zjab58]

It was not my intention- my language let me down on this occasion.

I can understand that, it is hard to convey your thoughts exactly how you mean them by electronic medium.

Plotwise I think that both Marlow and Shakespeare need some work, not that I could do much better. Marlow doesn't seem to care much for plot development and drawing characters out. Shakespeare seems to use a lot of "Deus ex Machine" Which is just cheating. I think both were great in their own right, but everyone has at least one weak point.

As far is who is Shakespeare, most true Shakespearians don't argue that much about whether or not Shakespeare wrote his plays. There are of course those on the fringe that believe otherwise. We looked into this at the begining of the semester in my Shakespeare class, and I just didn't see enough proof that he didn't write the plays. Of course this could just be what my prof showed us.

[zjab58]

I am sure that Shakespeare would be a Big Brother fan for example

  Please, PLEASE tell me that you didn't just compare Shakespeare and any sort of reality TV. That would almost be too assinine to respond to.
  There are quite a few movies and maybe a couple of TV shows that I think can hold up to Shakespeare, but those are few and far between.
  My point with the jokes was not to say that because we don't undersstand them that we are stupid, I have other reasons for that. I just don't think that Shakespeare is funny.
  My point is: as a society we don't have as much general knowledge about certain things, and we seem not to care. Admittedly there is more knowledge on our behalf to new technologies and such, but I think that we should still try to keep the standards high in the other areas as well.

I will try to get off of my soapbox soon, but I can't make promises.  

[serg]

Shakespeare's comedies aren't his best work, however 'The Comedy of Errors' did make me laugh quite a bit. However if you read this play make sure you read the whole thing in one go rather than bit by bit to appreciate it's comedy properly.

My fav play by him is probs 'Coriolanus.' A work of genius.

Serg.

[hypo]

You don't have to get off the soapbox zjab, I think there is much truth in your posts on the subject and I have enjoyed reading what you have had to say.

[hypo]

I think I'll read Heart Of Darkness by Conrad tomorrow.

[brother_gyne]

the horror

[zjab58]

the horror

That's great.  Not a big fan of that one. I'm pretty picky. Although it is amazing that Conrad's first language isn't even English and he can write like he does. The writing is amazing, but the story leaves a lot to be desired. In my opinion.