Gynecomastia Support Forum
Gynecomastia.org => Suggestions / Comments => Topic started by: tallman on March 22, 2012, 02:08:19 PM
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You claim "The website provides the most comprehensive information that exists on gynecomastia", and yet I see very little on non-surgical solutions - i.e., anti-estrogens, diet, etc. Do you have any information on hormonal imbalances that might cause this condition, and how they can be corrected?
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Analysis of hormone levels and subsequent adjustment of those levels is not a do it yourself job. That is the simple reason you will not find what you are looking for. I think you should be talking to an Endocrinologist.
Dietary plans and herbal remedies have proven to be of little or no worth. So you will not find anything about them here either.
The most common focus does relate to surgery, but you will also find information about simply coping with the condition as well. We are not all good candidates for surgery. Many of us, myself included, are living with the condition. There is a certain amount of comfort that comes simply from knowing you are not alone.
The condition is not a disease, so there will never be a cure as such. Meaning that cosmetic surgery is the only reliable way to diminish the size of the male breast.
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I'd disagree that "cosmetic surgery is the only reliable way to diminish the size of the male breast". The size in my case and many others is a direct result of hormone imbalance. Seems like you are pushing surgery for people with this condition without evening considering the cause, and in cases such as mine, it is completely reversible by correcting hormone imbalances. You are not presenting a balanced view of treatments, and could be doing surgeries that are completely unnecessary.
To be honest, you really should state that this site is about surgical remedies only.
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This may come as a surprise to you, but I do not favor surgery. In my opinion, when the simple truth about the condition is widely known any stigma will be removed and there will be no need for surgery ever again.
Sadly, I have even seen misinformation even on the Dr. Oz show. The promise of the internet was that information would be available at light speed. What was not considered was this fact: Misinformation is also available at light speed and since it is more sensational it gets spread wider.
I was told to lose some weight to get rid of my enlarged breasts when I was about 18. At 5' 10" and 130 lbs I was hardly fat. Yet this myth persists even today and I am now almost 75 years old. If a person is genuinely obese, then weight loss can be beneficial obviously.
You claim to have knowledge of some natural method to reduce the male breasts. Frankly, I do not believe you. Sorry.
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This may come as a surprise to you, but I do not favor surgery. In my opinion, when the simple truth about the condition is widely known any stigma will be removed and there will be no need for surgery ever again.
Sadly, I have even seen misinformation even on the Dr. Oz show. The promise of the internet was that information would be available at light speed. What was not considered was this fact: Misinformation is also available at light speed and since it is more sensational it gets spread wider.
I was told to lose some weight to get rid of my enlarged breasts when I was about 18. At 5' 10" and 130 lbs I was hardly fat. Yet this myth persists even today and I am now almost 75 years old. If a person is genuinely obese, then weight loss can be beneficial obviously.
You claim to have knowledge of some natural method to reduce the male breasts. Frankly, I do not believe you. Sorry.
Paa_Paw, My dear friend, I could not have said it better!
Bob aka Hammer
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I'm not claiming knowledge of natural methods - I'm looking for information from professionals who have studied it. There are plenty of claims on the web about natural methods - I'm looking for a professional who has actually studied test reports and can give an objective judgment on what is effective. But it is hard to find an objective physician who will admit when natural alternatives when they are effective - it is contrary to their financial well being to do so.
I do know for a fact that hormone levels are sometimes the cause of gynecomastia - two endochronologists and a lot of personal research and blood testing has told me that mine is caused by testosterone converting to estrogen, and that can be adjusted through medication. That's not true in all cases, only in some. There are multiple causes, and not all are caused by hormones. I'm just surprised that this site seems to recommend surgery or acceptance as the only two solutions when for some there is a third option. It doesn't strike me as very balanced.
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I started with mild gynecomastia as a youth, but my testicles died after a vasectomy and it was over two years before I knew that they had died and needed to be removed. I had a major hormone imbalance! (talk about big boobs) I was put on testosterone replacement but had more problems with that then it was worth. You can read this all in more detail in all that I write in "MY STORY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS" found in stories.
I don't think that your going to find anyone, doctor included that can control gyne with hormone balancing, as each person will be different on his needs as to what he needs and the amounts of each to maintain a perfect balance. If there was anyone, you would find them here!
As an insulin dependent diabetic, I can tell you that it is hard to control diabetes which is more studied and researched, and has been for many more years then gyne. I can have several days that are very much the same. Same activity, (I'm disabled) same food (I eat the same for weight control), and my insulin needs can change from day to day as the sugar spikes one day and goes to low or stays normal on others.
Oh ya, insulin is also a hormone!
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Vendors of "Natural" remedies deliberately walk a very narrow line and intentionally avoid haveing to have their products evaluated as drugs. This means that they really do not have to prove anything. On every container of these "Natural" products are a series of disclaimers which state that the products are not for the treatment of any disease and that the dosages and claims have not been evaluated by the FDA.
The only proof would have to come from a double blind study and the purveyors of these products have carefully avoided that because they know they would fail.
When a product has been around long enough that everyone knows it is a scam, The product is simply rebranded and sold under a new name.
If you are absolutely determined to try something, You might try to find a MD who practices "Holistic" medicine.
I do wish you well, but I think you are about to spend your money unwisely.
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I'm not claiming knowledge of natural methods - I'm looking for information from professionals who have studied it. There are plenty of claims on the web about natural methods - I'm looking for a professional who has actually studied test reports and can give an objective judgment on what is effective. But it is hard to find an objective physician who will admit when natural alternatives when they are effective - it is contrary to their financial well being to do so.
I do know for a fact that hormone levels are sometimes the cause of gynecomastia - two endochronologists and a lot of personal research and blood testing has told me that mine is caused by testosterone converting to estrogen, and that can be adjusted through medication. That's not true in all cases, only in some. There are multiple causes, and not all are caused by hormones. I'm just surprised that this site seems to recommend surgery or acceptance as the only two solutions when for some there is a third option. It doesn't strike me as very balanced.
Hi Tallman,
I'm just surprised that this site seems to recommend surgery or acceptance as the only two solutions when for some there is a third option.
Mythology abounds. I grew breasts at age 12 in 1960. In 50+ years I have never found a "natural method" for making a whole lot of excess tissue go away. Neither have any doctors. I have found plenty of practitioners willing to sell you whatever mythology you want to believe and can afford. It doesn't work. It's like phone pseudo sex, the longer they keep you taking the more they make.
I'm not for surgery. I went the acceptance route. I had a whole lot of real health problems to deal with that were far more important than the appearance of breasts. It was actually rather easy. I just became a nudist and got rid of the whole body shame business, all of it. It just doesn't matter and never give an inch to body bullies.
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Since the posting of links to other web sites is disabled use the most common search engine and type in "gynecomastia" and "tamoxifen".
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Mythology abounds. I grew breasts at age 12 in 1960. In 50+ years I have never found a "natural method" for making a whole lot of excess tissue go away. Neither have any doctors. I have found plenty of practitioners willing to sell you whatever mythology you want to believe and can afford. It doesn't work. It's like phone pseudo sex, the longer they keep you taking the more they make.
well said. people come here all the time asking about supplement x or pill y. they want to believe so they don't have to spend $5000 instead of 99.95, and they get mad when someone tells them it's not going to work. a few of them will sheepishly admit a half a year later they got nowhere.
if a hammer smashes a glass, swinging it backwards is not going to unsmash it. your levels (ratios are more important, but even that's an oversimplification) can go back to normal, but the gyne is going to stay there.
the fact most people understand this simple truth is why the board may SEEM to be a surgery-favoring place, when in truth there are lots of opinions here, but that one is still a fact. save your money for what works, don't waste it on what won't.
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Interesting.
Basically, you want professionals who research and study the issue to provide information contrary to their research and professional opinions. The reason you'll find little information from these professionals is because the research indicates that these 'natural cures' are worth less than the paper or electrons on which they're advertised.
I've been around this site for a while now and have seen many a doctor recommend seeking an experienced Endocrinologist to check for hormone imbalances but as someone pointed out, that's as far as the responsible discussion should go. The rest of that discussion is between you and your Endocrinologist and cannot be nor should it be provided via a public forum.
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it's much simpler than you are making it.
my reply did not rest on what a bunch of (generally quite competent) physicians fed me somewhere, but on my own direct observation of dozens and dozens of real men's actual experiences with a lot of snake oil over close to nine years on this site (as well as reading through almost the entire archive contents of maybe 2-3 years of the very first boards before that). plus grasping the simple fact that removing the inducing factor does not make a half a kilo's worth of tissue disappear into nothing, no matter what the pill sellers promise they can cure. and having read the claims, i know they do falsely promise that. seriously. some of them are no more competent than the idea you need more testosterone - never mind that an excess will just aromatize to estro. the effects of the more expensive big pharma versions will generally be not much better either. i assume you get my analogy above about trying to unbreak the glass.
you are correct the discussion should be with the endo, who at least understands the great complexities of the problem, even if that will not translate to a cure in any but the most marginal cases, if even those. however, the reason the doctors recommend that discussion, like you say, is to be sure things are relatively stable in order to minimize the risk of recurrence. you should not imagine that it is because it will lead to a cure.
i am all for people's rights to choose alternative remedies for themselves, independent of a big-brother state, and i oppose the excesses of an fda that's in bed with the pharmaceutical megacorporations. i even believe firmly in your right to choose acceptance for yourself if that's what works for you, anyone else, gyne or non-gyne, be d@mned. i just also believe in telling the truth about scams and false hopes on a subject i know something about.
i hope that makes things a little clearer.
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I'd disagree that "cosmetic surgery is the only reliable way to diminish the size of the male breast". The size in my case and many others is a direct result of hormone imbalance. Seems like you are pushing surgery for people with this condition without evening considering the cause, and in cases such as mine, it is completely reversible by correcting hormone imbalances. You are not presenting a balanced view of treatments, and could be doing surgeries that are completely unnecessary.
To be honest, you really should state that this site is about surgical remedies only.
Hi Tallman,
I have a hypothesis about the teenaged formation of breasts based on limited case histories. It might also apply to men in the 50s and after. So here is how you prevent yourself from growing breasts when you were twelve or 13. Find somebody with a time machine. Go back to your age 10 and give yourself enough bottles of methylb12, adnosylb12 and Metafolin to last your younger self until age 18. These vitamins might normalize the metabolism and hormones during that period. Deficiencies certainly cause all sorts of hormone problems. I don't know anybody with an operable time machine. However for $20,000,000 I know somebody who would be willing to try to build one.
Somewhat less expensively I know a shaman who might be able to send you back into your younger self with the knowledge. Unfortunately none of those supplements were available before 1998, and remembering what you were supposed to doesn't usually work. See THE STRANGE LIFE OF IVAN OSAKIN by Peter Ouspensky. Another good cautionary tale is BUTTERFLY EFFECT.
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Unfortunately it has been mentioned here several times in the past. The results are based on personal belief. You want it to work and you think it might work and as long as you keep believing it seems to be working, until the day when you actually face the truth, that there has actually been no improvement.
Most of the Herbal remedies work on the same principle. as long as they can keep you believing they can keep selling you their stuff. Ultimately you have to face the truth, that it does no good at all.
If the condition of Gynecomastia is caused by a medication, and the medication is withdrawn soon enough, It may revert. The operative word is May.
If the condition is caused by a hormonal imbalance and the imbalance is rectified, partial reversal of the growth is possible. The opertive words being Partial and Possible.
Reversal of the condition is not possible once the growth has stabilized. I liken it to trying to uncook a boiled egg. I like HHH's analogy of unbreaking pane of glass too.
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I'm not saying this is a remedy, but I've been doing tons and tons of research on this and here are a few interesting things to look at....
1: J Pediatr. 2004 Jul;145(1):71-6. Related Articles, Links
Comment in:
* J Pediatr. 2005 Apr;146(4):576; author reply 576-7.
* J Pediatr. 2005 Apr;146(4):576; author reply 576-7.
Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia.
Lawrence SE, Faught KA, Vethamuthu J, Lawson ML.
Department of Pediatrics, University of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.
slawrence@cheo.on.ca
OBJECTIVES: To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifene in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia.
STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene).
RESULTS: Mean (SD) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients.
CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.
PMID: 15238910 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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1) ............We decided to evaluate the effect of raloxifene in a series of patients with gynaecomastia. Twelve patients aged 18-84 years were treated. Breast enlargement was unilateral in 5 cases; its duration ranged from a few weeks (7 cases) to several years (5 cases). Four patients were hypogonadal by clinical criteria, and had low serum testosterone. In two patients there was a possible drug effect (prasterone in one, ranitidine in the other). The size of breast tissue ranged between 1.5 and 6.0 cm. All patients had normal testes by palpation, and normal serum levels of estradiol, lh - leutenizing hormone - , FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - , prolactin, and alpha-HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - . Liver function tests and serum creatinine also were normal. The dose of raloxifene was 60 mg every other day in 4 elderly patients (age 70 years or more), and 60 mg daily in the remaining; the medication was given for 2-12 months. Hypogonadal patients received, in addition, i.m. injections of testosterone enanthate, 100 mg twice a month.
Raloxifene was well tolerated; only one young patient reported a slight decrease in sexual potency. No subject complained of hot flushes; there were no episodes of thrombophlebitis during follow-up. The analgesic effect of treatment was fast (2-4 weeks) and sustained among 9 patients with pain and tenderness. The size of the gynaecomastia was evaluated monthly by means of a caliper (all patients), and ultrasonography (7 patients). All patients responded: there was an average reduction in size of 61% (range: 34-100%); in 2 patients gynaecomastia disappeared. Six of 8 eugonadal patients (75%) had a reduction in the size of breast tissue of at least 50% (average, 73%). Among hypogonadal patients (all of them followed with ultrasonography) gynaecomastia disappeared in one, and size reduction in the remaining subjects ranged between 46 and 67% (this is particularly noteworthy, since testosterone replacement not infrequently causes or aggravates gynaecomastia due to local aromatization to oestrogens by mammary tissue). Maximal effect was observed during the first 2 months of treatment.
This open, observational study suggests that raloxifene may be a safe, well tolerated and effective therapeutic alternative for drug-induced or idiopathic gynaecomastia in men of all ages.
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Very interesting. and very suggestive that there may be something. The next step would be a double blind test using a larger sample group.
This information that you might think the drug companies would be interested. A reliable drug that would reduce Gynecomastia would be a gold mine for a pharmaceutical company.
The next questions might be: Why is there no follow up to this item from 8 years ago? Was a double blind test done? You get the idea, The article is provocative, but not conclusive.
I really admire your sense of hope. If you live long enough you may actually see what you want.
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Paa_Paw-
Thank you for the kind words. I have over a dozen articles and I would like to share some with this community. Is there someone I can contact so I can send them for their approval?
Here is another one that light up my face...
My raloxifene research (EVISTA®)
Raloxifene - 2nd Generation SERM (Specific Estrogen Receptor Modulator)
Brand Name - Evista (Raloxifene HCL)
Halflife - 27.7 hours
A few studies:
Effects of raloxifene on gonadotrophins, sex hormones, bone turnover and lipids in healthy elderly men
EJ Duschek, LJ Gooren, and C Netelenbos
Department of Endocrinology, VU University Medical Centre, Amsterdam, The Netherlands. e.duschek@vumc.nl
OBJECTIVE: To explore effects on serum lipids, pituitary-gonadal axis, prostate and bone turnover of the administration of the mixed oestrogen agonist/antagonist raloxifene in healthy elderly men. PARTICIPANTS: Thirty healthy men aged 60-70 years randomly received raloxifene 120 mg/day (n=15) or placebo (n=15) for 3 months. MEASUREMENTS: In this double-blind, placebo-controlled study, serum gonadotrophins, sex hormones, prostate specific antigen (PSA), a marker of bone turnover, urinary hydroxyproline (OHPro) and cholesterol were measured at baseline and after 3 months. RESULTS: Raloxifene significantly increased serum concentrations of LH and FSH (by 29% and 21%), total testosterone (20%), free testosterone (16%) and bioavailable testosterone (not bound to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG; 20%). In parallel with testosterone, 17 beta-oestradiol also increased by 21%. SHBG increased by 7%. Total cholesterol (TChol) decreased significantly, from 5.7 to 5.5 mmol/l (P=0.03). Low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-c) and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-c) showed a trend to decrease. Overall, there was no change in urinary OHPro/creatinine ratio as a marker for bone resorption. However, the raloxifene-induced increases in both serum testosterone and 17 beta-oestradiol were significantly related to a lower OHPro/creatinine ratio. Total PSA increased by 17% without significant changes in free PSA or free/total PSA ratio. Participants reported no side effects and raloxifene was well tolerated. CONCLUSION: In healthy elderly man, raloxifene 120 mg/day for 3 months increased LH, FSH and sex steroid hormones. Potentially beneficial effects were the small but significant decrease in TChol and the trend towards a decrease in LDL-c. Negative effects were the trend towards a decrease in HDL-c and the significant increase in serum PSA. A decrease in markers of bone resorption during raloxifene treatment was found only in men with relatively high increases in serum testosterone and 17 beta-oestradiol. Overall, there were no clear beneficial effects of administration of raloxifene to ageing men in this preliminary investigation.
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A study showing raloxifenes use in treating pre-existing gynocomastia
from Superior muscle
Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) are a relatively new family of drugs designed to act as estrogens on some, but not all, tissues.2 Tamoxifen is a first-generation SERM. Raloxifene, a second-generation SERM, has been extensively studied on postmenopausal women, and is indicated for the treatment of postmenopausal osteoporosis.3 It is an alternative to estrogen replacement therapy in women with a history of breast cancer.4, 5 Its anti-proliferative effect on mammary tissue is such that prolonged use reduces the risk of breast cancer among osteoporotic women.6
In a recent placebo-controlled short-term trial, the drug was administered to 34 healthy males (mean age, 48 years) at the dose of 60 mg/day for one month; no subject developed gynocomastia. Besides, serum testosterone increased 20%, and serum estradiol decreased slightly.7
We decided to evaluate the effect of raloxifene in a series of patients with gynocomastia. Twelve patients aged 18-84 years were treated. Breast enlargement was unilateral in 5 cases; its duration ranged from a few weeks (7 cases) to several years (5 cases). Four patients were hypogonadal by clinical criteria, and had low serum testosterone. In two patients there was a possible drug effect (prasterone in one, ranitidine in the other). The size of breast tissue ranged between 1.5 and 6.0 cm. All patients had normal testes by palpation, and normal serum levels of estradiol, LH, FSH, prolactin, and alpha-hCG. Liver function tests and serum creatinine also were normal. The dose of raloxifene was 60 mg every other day in 4 elderly patients (age 70 years or more), and 60 mg daily in the remaining; the medication was given for 2-12 months. Hypogonadal patients received, in addition, i.m. injections of testosterone enanthate, 100 mg twice a month.
Raloxifene was well tolerated; only one young patient reported a slight decrease in sexual potency. No subject complained of hot flushes; there were no episodes of thrombophlebitis during follow-up. The analgesic effect of treatment was fast (2-4 weeks) and sustained among 9 patients with pain and tenderness. The size of the gynocomastia was evaluated monthly by means of a caliper (all patients), and ultrasonography (7 patients). All patients responded: there was an average reduction in size of 61% (range: 34-100%); in 2 patients gynocomastia disappeared. Six of 8 eugonadal patients (75%) had a reduction in the size of breast tissue of at least 50% (average, 73%). Among hypogonadal patients (all of them followed with ultrasonography) gynocomastia disappeared in one, and size reduction in the remaining subjects ranged between 46 and 67% (this is particularly noteworthy, since testosterone replacement not infrequently causes or aggravates gynocomastia due to local aromatization to estrogens by mammary tissue). Maximal effect was observed during the first 2 months of treatment.
This open, observational study suggests that raloxifene may be a safe, well tolerated and effective therapeutic alternative for drug-induced or idiopathic gynocomastia in men of all ages.
Zulema Man, MD.
TIEMPO, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Ariel S??nchez, MD, PhD;
Hugo Carretto, MD;
Ricardo Parma, MD.
Centro de Endocrinolog??a, Rosario, Argentina
References
1. Khan HN, Blamey RW. Endocrine treatment of physiological gynaecomastia. Br Med J 2003;327:301-2.
2. Compston JE. Selective oestrogen receptor modulators: potential therapeutic implications. Clin Endocrinol 1998;48:389-91.
3. Agnusdei D, Iori N. Raloxifene: results from the MORE study. J Musculoskel Neuron Interact 2000;1:127-32.
4. Cummings SR, Eckert S, Krueger KA, Grady D, Powles TJ, Cauley JA, Norton L, Nickelsen T, Bjarnasson NH, Morrow M, Lippman ME, Black D, Glusman JE, Costa A, Jordan VC. The effect of raloxifene on risk of breast cancer in postmenopausal women. J Am Med Ass 1999;281:2189-97.
5. Mincey BA, Morahan TJ, Perez EA. Prevention and treatment of osteoporosis in women with breast cancer. Mayo Clin Proc 2000;75:821-9.
6. Cauley JA, Norton L, Lippman ME, Eckert S, Krueger KA, Purdie DW, Farrerons J, Karasik A, Mellstrom D, Ng KW, Stepan JJ, Powles TJ, Morrow M, Costa A, Silfen SL, Walls EL, Schmitt H, Muchmore DM, Jordan VC. Continued breast cancer risk reduction in postmenopausal women treated with raloxifene: 4-year results from the MORE trial. Breast Cancer Res Treatment 2001;65:125-34.
7. Uebelhart B, Bonjour JP, Draper MW, Pavo I, Basson R, Rizzoli R. Effects of selective estrogen receptor modulator raloxifene on the pituitary gonadal axis in healthy males (Abstract). J Bone Miner Res 2000;15(Suppl 1):S453.
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A study documenting the long term use of Raloxifen
Effects of Long-Term Use of Raloxifene, a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, on Thyroid Function Test Profiles
Sandy H.-J. Hsu, Wern-Cherng Cheng, Men-Wang Jang and Keh-Sung Tsai
Estrogen (1)(2)(3)(4)(5) may increase hepatic production of thyroxine-binding globulin (TBG) and decrease TBG clearance (6), thus increasing serum total thyroxine (tT4) (3)(4) and, to a lesser extent, total triiodothyronine (tT3) (3)(4). As a result, increased tT4 and tT3 are seen in states of excessive estrogen and/or progestin, such as pregnancy, estrogen replacement therapy (HRT) (5), and oral contraceptive usage (1). This phenomenon may cause problems in clinical diagnoses when tT4 or tT3 is used for these patients. On the other hand, estrogen has been shown to increase thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) and to decrease free thyroxine (fT4) through a mild inhibitory effect on the thyroid gland (4). Compound that are analogs of estrogens, such as tamoxifen, have been shown to increase TSH without decreasing fT4 (7)(8). Recently, a new category of therapeutic agents, collectively termed selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), has been developed to treat patients with postmenopausal osteoporosis (9). Raloxifene is one SERM. It decreases bone resorption (9)(10) and serum LDL-cholesterol (9)(11)(12), but it does not stimulate breast (13) or endometrium (14) at the recommended dosage of 60 mg daily. This agent is becoming one of the first-line pharmaceutical agents for postmenopausal osteoporosis and is currently administered to a large number of patients. However, the effect of long-term raloxifene usage on TBG, T3 uptake, tT3, tT4, fT4, and TSH has not been well documented. To investigate whether raloxifene causes changes in serum concentrations of these markers, we compared the effects of 1 year of treatment with either raloxifene or combined continuous estrogen and progesterone (CCEP) on the thyroid function test profiles, estradiol 2 (E2), and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH).
We studied 60 euthyroid postmenopausal women (age range, 40–75 years) with relatively low bone mineral density. The t-score, using the mean and SD of healthy premenopausal Taiwanese women as reference (15), ranged from +1 to -2.49. These 60 women were divided into two groups in a double-blind, randomized fashion. Fifty women received raloxifene (60 mg daily) before breakfast, and 10 women received combined conjugated equine estrogen (premarin®; 0.625 mg) and medroxyprogesterone acetate (provera®; 5 mg) daily. Fasting serum samples were collected for all participants at baseline and after 1 year of treatment. All of the serum samples were stored at -70 °C, thawed simultaneously, and measured on the same day. All participants completed the treatment program. The compliance was good for both groups. Pill counting showed that each patient consumed 85–100% of the tablets/capsules.
Serum tT3, tT4, fT4, TBG, third-generation TSH, T3 uptake, E2, and FSH were all measured using commercial chemiluminescent immunoassays and instruments (Immulite; DPC). The within-day imprecision (CVs) of these assays was 3–7%.
We used two-way ANOVA for repeated measures to compare the concentrations of E2 and FSH and the thyroid function profiles between the two therapeutic groups, before and after treatment. The data were analyzed by the general linear model procedure (PROG GLM) included in the SAS package (SAS, Ver. 6.12; SAS Institute).
The anthropometric data and the mean value (± SE) for each thyroid function test item before and after treatment in the CCEP and raloxifene groups are shown in Table 1 . At baseline, there was no significant difference in height, weight, age, years since menopause, or thyroid function test items between these two groups. CCEP significantly increased serum TBG (17%), tT3 (5.7%), and tT4 (19%) and decreased T3 uptake (9%), whereas it did not change TSH. The mean fT4 concentration decreased by 3%, but the change was not statistically significant. Raloxifene also increased serum TBG (7.8%), tT3 (4.4%), and tT4 (5.7%) and decreased T3 uptake (3.7%). The mean fT4 concentration decreased by 3%, but this change was not statistically significant (Table 1 ). The changes in these five markers were apparently smaller than those caused by CCEP but did not reach statistical significance.
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Same thing. A small number of selected patients and no control group.
A really valid test would have many times more subjects and a control group.
It has been known for some time, that for some selected patients, Some drugsmay be beneficial. The trouble is that they do not work across the spectrum of men and they need to be carefully monitored, usually by an Endocrinologist.
There was a time when I personally thought every man should have a complete work-up by an Endocrinologist prior to seeing a surgeon. The truth is that the number of men who were helped by that was so small that the concept proved impractical.
The magic pill you are looking for may actually come along some day, but I certainly do not expect to live long enough to see it.
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Paa Paw-
I hope that one day a pill is available to reverse or at least reduce the size of gyno. I have to give this method a shot before deciding to go through with surgery. I will be attempting the Raloxifene medication and log it in a thread. Best!
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HI Keep_it_moving,
Good luck in your search. At 65 I worry about the side effects of drugs that affect my health. However, effects on male breast size are not a concern. Having lost 40 pounds I have gone done from DD to D cup, which is to say no practical difference. I was told as teen to loose weight. I got down to 170 at 5'11" with a muscular build. Nope, they didn't go away. "Do pushups" the doctors said. Right. That made them more outstanding than ever.
I had no illusions that anything would change even if my breasts would disappear. So I became a nudist, got rid of body shame and fear, and had a good time instead. Make the most out of your life. It's a shame to waste so much time, energy and concern on something that just don't make any difference when it comes right down to it. One I got out of school and away from all the juvenile minded nobody but bullies and as others have expressed the best way to deal with a bully is make them look like a fool in front of everybody. When younger I also beat the crap out of some. Bullies made me angry and I responded to them in ways so as to discourage them. As I grew older I developed the skills to do it verbally. Never let a bully win.
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Alchemists and I (and some others) can also have fun in wet t-shirt contest putting the girls to shame as we win! LOL, Double Ds can take home the prize many times when there on guys!
We have not only have learn to accept, live with, but have a little fun besides!
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Alchemist-
Thank you for sharing your story with me. Having the dedication and determination to change your body by working out is inspiring. I've definitely let myself go for the past 4-5 weeks, but it's time to man up and enjoy my workouts.
Hammer-
Reading about you guys enjoying your lives despite the given circumstances is very encouraging. Inspirational. Thank you.
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An interesting find....
[Testosterone and estradiol levels in male gynecomastia. Clinical and endocrine findings during treatment with tamoxifen].
[Article in German]
Eversmann T, Moito J, von Werder K.
Abstract
Oestradiol-(E2) levels in serum were significantly higher in a group of 91 males with gynaecomastia than in a control group. The levels were highest in patients with testicular tumour, hyperprolactinaemia and idiopathic gynaecomastia. In gynaecomastia of puberty and primary or secondary hypogonadism, the E2 level was within normal limits, but the testosterone/oestradiol ratio was significantly reduced. Tamoxifen, at a daily dose of 20 mg, was administered over 2-4 months to 16 patients with gynaecomastia. Of twelve patients with painful gynaecomastia ten became painfree. Gynaecomastia regressed partially or completely in 14 patients, in only 2 was it unchanged. There was no recurrence of gynaecomastia after discontinuing tamoxifen. Side-effects did not occur. It is concluded that tamoxifen is a promising alternative to the surgical treatment of gynaecomastia.
PMID:
6489180
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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The poster did not mention alternative remedies actually. He said that in some cases Gyne is caused by a hormone imbalance and he was asking why this type of info isn't present on the site. No I don't know if hormones as someone said are "manageable" but it seems to me a fair question to ask? Most of you are mentioning the alternative medicine route which the poster isn't mentioning!
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I will be attempting the Raloxifene medication and log it in a thread. Best!
Have you given this a shot? I have similarly done a great deal of research on Raloxifene and I recently ordered it from an online pharmacy. I am curious to know whether you ended up giving it a go, and if so what dosage you took and for how long. Any results? Thanks and good luck!
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People will believe what they want to believe and a person will find a way to prove what they want to prove.
The study cited by Keep it Moving is an example. Actually he did a good piece of research but the study itself is flawed.
For starters, E2 levels were higher in the group of 91 men with Gynecomastia than in the control group. How many men were in the control group?
Next I would ask how the participants were selected. We know that the group of 91 included men with teaticular tumors and others with hyperprolactinemia but what is the actual incidence of those conditions? Obviously this was a select group even from the start.
Selecting 12 out of the 91 that had painful breasts, 10 were pain free as a result of the treatment. Breasts are painful only when they are actively growing, either in puberty or prior to lactation. I dare say that for most of us the growth happened long ago raather than now.
The 12 mentioned above were part of a group of 16 who were treated. Suddenly over 80% of the group were eliminated! I think screening probably showed that they would not benefit from the treatment. Anyway, 14 of the 16 had partial or complete regression. If the size of your vreasts is carefully measured, How much regression would you be happy with? 5% or maybe 10% No!you want it all gone.
What this study proves is what we have said here for at least 10 years. If a person has a glandular problem or their vreasts are actively growing, An Endocrinologist will be able to benefit a small number of selected patients. Most of us are not in that tiny group. I think the pre-operative screening by most surgeons would send most men to an Endocrinologist if there was a chance that it was the right thing to do.
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I will be attempting the Raloxifene medication and log it in a thread. Best!
Have you given this a shot? I have similarly done a great deal of research on Raloxifene and I recently ordered it from an online pharmacy. I am curious to know whether you ended up giving it a go, and if so what dosage you took and for how long. Any results? Thanks and good luck!
I did give Tamoxifen/ Raloxifene a shot (prescribed by my doctor).
It really didn't help me out, had some side effects.
I hated taking the medication and really wish I hadn't but oh well. What can one do?
I'll be getting the surgery done here within the next 9 months....A few of the surgeons on this site look very promising.
Going to get in the best shape humanly possible and pray my hair will regrow once my body begins to run itself again.
Hope this helps someone...
All the best,
K.I.M.
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As we used to say, that sounds like an E ticket ride for sure.
Thank you so much for your very candid account. Every once in a while someone has to give it a try just to prove that it is not a good idea. I'm truly sorry for what you went through and hope that you have a positive surgical experience.
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Hi Keep_it_moving,
My T levels fell to below 200 with b12/folate deficiencies when I was 39. My whole body crashed. Upon re-understanding the sequence for me it went something like this.
I had folate problems from birth. The B12 deficiencies followed when my mother cut back meat and increased veggies, increasing my paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms and making the b12 deficiency worse. One year after she cut back my meat by 75% I grew breasts starting at 11. There is no doubt that B12/folate deficiencies tremendously affect hormones. The methylation chemistry is needed, the ATP and enzymes are needed. At 39 I had an ATP crash and methyl-trap occur together and my hormones fell like a rock.
I have been on testosterone, 140mg/week injections for the last 11 years, Androgel for 2 years before that. It has helped my health tremendously. It did not affect my hair thinning which had been frozen in time for 20 years. However, when I started methylb12 3 years later and started healing generally that is when my hair picked up thinning just a little. In the past 30 years I have taken probably 50 drugs that can "cause" gynecomastia. Not one one of them changed anything. I also take 100mg of pregnenolone and 50mg DHEA. My hormones are measured each 6 months and have been quite stable and my internist is satisfied. A drop of 10-20% of testosterone dose and I stop being able to get erections, so if functionality is looked at the dose is about the lowest dose that works.
Through the years I have been D or DD depending upon subcutaneous fat. I'm 6', 190 pounds with a 48 inch chest (naturally large, 37" arms) and currently 35 inch waist. My hips are gone and I can't keep 36" pants up without a belt. I sink now with 2/3 of a lung of air. Before I couldn't sink. My pecs, when not flexed, just look like part of the breasts. What I have found is that taking the last 20 pounds off, from 210, has increased the flirting and hugs from the ladies at the nudist club a good 400%.
Another 15 pounds and those brushed denim green hip-hugger bells I could wear in the 70s could be this years fashion disaster.
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I did give the Raloxifene as well as the Tamoxifen a shot.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to detail your experience. I want to be as informed as possible in my decision whether to put something into my body, so I am certainly taking this into consideration. My understanding was that Raloxifene is safe and tends to have minimal sides; your testimony bids the contrary. What dosage were you using? According to studies I've read, it should not raise your T so harshly...although I don't expect your experience to mirror the conclusions of the studies exactly, I'm surprised by your negative experience. So was there any decrease in size whatsoever? Or was it a complete waste of time/trouble?
I hope someone can learn from this and the moral of the story. Don't take PEDs and you won't get gyno. Don't self medicate.
That's excellent advice. In my case, it was not caused by PED's as I've never taken anything to alter my hormones, but I know a couple of guys from the gym who developed it after a cycle and were successful using Aromatase Inhibitors (unfortunately these don't work on pubertal gyno or I would have tried that by now). In fact, It was advice from someof these guys that first pointed me toward researching non-surgical options for gyno after hearing their success stories (although they had only just developed gyno when they treated - this factor I attribute for the efficacy of the AI's).
I'll be getting the surgery done here within the next 9 months....A few of the surgeons on this site look very promising.
Best of luck with the Surgery! Clue us in with what doc you use and your results. If you are comfortable with doing so, you ought to post some pics.
I'm 6', 190 pounds with a 48 inch chest (naturally large, 37" arms) and currently 35 inch waist. My hips are gone and I can't keep 36" pants up without a belt. I sink now with 2/3 of a lung of air. Before I couldn't sink. My pecs, when not flexed, just look like part of the breasts. What I have found is that taking the last 20 pounds off, from 210, has increased the flirting and hugs from the ladies at the nudist club a good 400%.
Great job with your health journey. Sounds like you have really improved your life physically, mentally, and emotionally. It's also very cool that you are so comfortable with your body. Good for you!
People will believe what they want to believe and a person will find a way to prove what they want to prove.
The study cited by Keep it Moving is an example. Actually he did a good piece of research but the study itself is flawed.
I appreciate you taking your time to share your understanding of that study and for giving Keeping_it_Moving recognition for spending his valuable time to research the topic. Many people would just troll the forum and say something like "You are just wasting your time, everyone knows surgery is the only option" without any educated information. So thank you for your informative analysis. Below, I am sharing a number of studies and conversation threads I have found useful on coming to an understanding of how Raloxifene works. If any of you feel inclined to analyze some of this information like Paa_Paw did, I think it could help a lot of readers on this forum.
Just delete the spaces after // and before each dot to access these links since "Posting of links to other web sites is disabled" on this forum... ???
Studies:
http:// www .bmj .com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/treatment-gynaecomastia-raloxifene
http:// www .ncbi .nlm.nih .gov/pubmed/15238910 - this one was already shared by Keep_it_Moving
http:// gynecoma .com/wp-content/post-files/causes-of-gynecomastia.pdf
http:// www .sciencedirect .com/science/article/pii/0026049586902374
http:// pubmedcentralcanada .ca/pmcc/articles/PMC1126712/pdf/3270301.pdf
Conversation threads (these come from websites that advocate steroid use, so please proceed with skepticism):
http:// www .steroidology .com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/635870-raloxifene-ultimate-gyno-treatment.html
http:// www .swolesource .com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/650-raloxifene-gyno-high-dose-2.html
Thanks all!
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If you'd like my personal advice on taking a SERM or AI to reduce gyno, I'd see an endocrinologist and see what they have to say about it.
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I believe the proper control of testosterone and estradiol ratios can prevent new growth.
I personally believe that no drug can significantly or noticeably reverse tissue that has already formed in Adults (kids and teens are a different issue).
I can say this after getting my estradiol down to zero (wow that was a nightmare) - and now in low normal range with a T to E ratio of around 28 and a Free T level high normal.
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I believe the proper control of testosterone and estradiol ratios can prevent new growth.
I personally believe that no drug can significantly or noticeably reverse tissue that has already formed in Adults (kids and teens are a different issue).
I can say this after getting my estradiol down to zero (wow that was a nightmare) - and now in low normal range with a T to E ratio of around 28 and a Free T level high normal.
Did you use medications to get your e to normal levels or did it come down naturally?
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I believe the proper control of testosterone and estradiol ratios can prevent new growth.
I agree.
I personally believe that no drug can significantly or noticeably reverse tissue that has already formed in Adults (kids and teens are a different issue).
I almost agree. I am currently one month in on a cycle of raloxifene (which I plan to use for as long as six months)...which is about the only thing I consider a possibility. If it doesn't work, I will be on board with you and be looking into getting surgery.
I can say this after getting my estradiol down to zero (wow that was a nightmare) - and now in low normal range with a T to E ratio of around 28 and a Free T level high normal.
What did you use to alter each of these respective levels?
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To reply to the last two posts I have improved my T and E ratios with Arimidex, a very very small amount at time of a weekly T injection. It not only reduces E2 but it increases Free T levels - a win win. But it is such a powerful drug that when I was first prescribed it - the daily dose suggested wiped out E2 completely and I felt terrible. Going too a weekly cycle of T injections from every two weeks also helped.
Many men who take T don't test or monitor their E2 levels... which they should, but controlling E2 in men is not well studied and its tricky to control.
P.S.In case anyone reading is wondering - Testosterone and Arimidex are medically prescribed by real doctors and are supervised. I don't abuse them, put my levels outside of acceptable ranges, or take illegally.
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@greatlakes
Thanks for the response, that's helpful information.
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To reply to the last two posts I have improved my T and E ratios with Arimidex, a very very small amount at time of a weekly T injection. It not only reduces E2 but it increases Free T levels - a win win. But it is such a powerful drug that when I was first prescribed it - the daily dose suggested wiped out E2 completely and I felt terrible. Going too a weekly cycle of T injections from every two weeks also helped.
Many men who take T don't test or monitor their E2 levels... which they should, but controlling E2 in men is not well studied and its tricky to control.
P.S.In case anyone reading is wondering - Testosterone and Arimidex are medically prescribed by real doctors and are supervised. I don't abuse them, put my levels outside of acceptable ranges, or take illegally.
I'm glad to hear that you're working with a doctor who is helping you balance, what appears to be, low t?
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Keep it moving,
Thanks for the questions. I am a testicular cancer survivor, HCG would not work in my specific case. Decreasing the frequency of injection intervals to biweekly from weekly has been something I considered. Going from every two weeks to once a week was very helpful. However, I like the simplicity of once a week its easy to remember. But I am keeping the option open for less than once a week. The amount of arimidex i take is just 0.25mg with the injection. I have to carefully cut up a 1mg pill as that is the smallest dose they prescribe.
By the way - FYI - I discovered I had Testicular cancer because as a 20 year old man - I began to develop gynecomastia. Young men who show symptoms should get a complete check of testicular functioning.
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Keep it moving,
Thanks for the questions. I am a testicular cancer survivor, HCG would not work in my specific case. Decreasing the frequency of injection intervals to biweekly from weekly has been something I considered. Going from every two weeks to once a week was very helpful. However, I like the simplicity of once a week its easy to remember. But I am keeping the option open for less than once a week. The amount of arimidex i take is just 0.25mg with the injection. I have to carefully cut up a 1mg pill as that is the smallest dose they prescribe.
By the way - FYI - I discovered I had Testicular cancer because as a 20 year old man - I began to develop gynecomastia. Young men who show symptoms should get a complete check of testicular functioning.
Hi Greatlakes,
"Many men who take T don't test or monitor their E2 levels... which they should, but controlling E2 in men is not well studied and its tricky to control."
I have been injecting testosterone for 10 years or so now after starting with Androgel. From the reading I have done, serum peak from an IM T injection takes 3 days, holds pretty steady through day 8 and starts falling off after that. I have found that weekly is as smooth as it is likely to get. I have regular tests and it's rock steady. It doesn't matter which day of the cycle I have it tested on. I don't monitor or anything about the E2. I grew breasts at 11 and aside from fat increases and decreases they have been unchanged since about age 15. All I need is another tricky to control thing going on. I have much more important things to worry about and feel no need at all. The testosterone works for it's intended purposes
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Alchemist - over 20 years for me.
My focus on controlling E2 was based on a return/increase in gynecomastia symptoms later in life. However after doing a lot of tests, seeing I had high e2 levels, and research I was surprised to read about the significant medical studies on the increases in death from stroke, heart disease, and more negatives... from men with high E2 or poor T to E ratios. Yikes. If your getting blood work anyway - tossing in an E2 level just to check - is nothing. Particularly on this site - where many are dealing with gynecomastia - you should know you E2 level and not just T levels. And of course the related "Free T" tests which show the functional T levels in your body that are not getting bound up.
However for those on T replacement, the easiest ways to minimize excess E2 are to control T dosing levels and intervals, and keep your weight down and including strength training, and a healthy diet. But for some thats not enough.
I have also had T levels tested at the middle and the end of my weekly T injection cycle - pretty steady levels, with maybe only a 10% drop at the end of a week.
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For anyone interested in seeing my progress with Raloxifene, I have kept a log on Google Drive. I am sharing here for anyone to look at and share questions/comments:
https:/ /docs. google. com/document/d/1OliJfhi22E61uVwXsWqPjMQxAi2qV8ECPDVKwuQzNNQ/edit?usp=sharing
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fyi, link does not work. either doc is gone or address is for user logged in.
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fyi, link does not work. either doc is gone or address is for user logged in.
Thanks for pointing that out. I had to insert three spaces into the URL to get it to post since this forum doesn't allow you to post links. The spaces to remove are as follows:
1. after https:/
2. after docs.
3. after google.
Once you remove those, the link should work.
Thanks,
Sven
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Alchemist - over 20 years for me.
My focus on controlling E2 was based on a return/increase in gynecomastia symptoms later in life. However after doing a lot of tests, seeing I had high e2 levels, and research I was surprised to read about the significant medical studies on the increases in death from stroke, heart disease, and more negatives... from men with high E2 or poor T to E ratios. Yikes. If your getting blood work anyway - tossing in an E2 level just to check - is nothing. Particularly on this site - where many are dealing with gynecomastia - you should know you E2 level and not just T levels. And of course the related "Free T" tests which show the functional T levels in your body that are not getting bound up.
However for those on T replacement, the easiest ways to minimize excess E2 are to control T dosing levels and intervals, and keep your weight down and including strength training, and a healthy diet. But for some thats not enough.
I have also had T levels tested at the middle and the end of my weekly T injection cycle - pretty steady levels, with maybe only a 10% drop at the end of a week.
Hi Greatlakes,
My internist doses a bunch of tests, different ones, each 6 months, taking a cross section as it were. With a history of congestive heart failure and so on we monitor all sorts of things. The testosterone is partly titrated by effectiveness. It is at the minimum level that maintains sexual functioning, mood, energy and keeps my muscles form atrophying, helps hold off edema and who knows what else. It's a very delicate balance. My whole system is at the edge of breakdown. Without finding this balance more than a decade ago I'd be long dead. The testosterone is part of the balance.
Good luck in finding a biological balance that works well for you.