Extra Skin

[blacksteel_03]

Has anyone in here ever had gyne surgery, then had to much extra skin, and then had to have a lift done to remove the excess skin or is it really rare. I hear that the skin contracts really good. But I guess sometimes you have to much gyne for it to go back to normal.

[phantom]

Hello blacksteel_03

I can answer your question in part.  I had surgery last Friday.  Up until that point my gynaecomastia was regarded as moderate/severe.  My breasts were described to me by my surgeon as being 'somewhat peduluar' meaning that the size of them made them crease or fold over a little onto the abdomen.  For your information a total of 800cc of fat was removed along with around 100g of glandular tissue.  I am of a good build, but not overweight.

One of my main concerns was that I'd be left with a flat, yet 'saggy' chest.  Whilst my surgeon could not guarantee the outcome, he said that given my age (32) he was fairly confident that whilst my chest would never be as tight as a drum skin, the skin should not 'hang' and should contract satisfactorily.

He said that if I had any concerns over the coming months (at least six) then we could discuss the issue further regarding revision surgery.  But he did warn me that the trade off between skin excision would be more obvious scarring at the excision site.

But I guess you need further information from another guy at least a few more months down the line, which would of course be of interest to me too.

Hope that helps a little.

[blacksteel_03]

Yeah it does. THanks.

[Bakajin]

These are some links to Dr Bermant's site that shows examples of patients who have had mastopexy surgey (breast lift to remove excess skin).

http://www.plasticsurgery4u.com/procedure_folder/male_breast/shortscar_male_breast_lift.html

http://www.plasticsurgery4u.com/procedure_folder/male_breast_lift/weight_loss_breast_lift.htm

in both cases there is significant improvement after the surgery and any scarring appears to be minimal.  Even if there was more severe scarring, compared to having loose saggy breasts it shouldn't be a major concern.  Futhermore many people suffering from loose skin also have stretch marks which tend to look worse than scars.  Basically the benefits appear to far outweight the slight negatives.  

[DrBermant]

I don't think stretch marks tend to look worse than scars and different people scar differently. Also, loose saggy breasts are only a consequence if you have surgery to begin with. I've known people who regretted having the surgery which left them with loose skin and terrible geometric scars when they tried to have it corrected. Even so, it's unlikely that this will necessarily happen so you might want to take your chances if gyno bothers you enough. After all, choosing not to have surgery might leave you with the feeling that you're not doing enough or are afraid to go under the knife.

The most common cause of loose skin (for females) is pregnancy.  The next for women and the most common cause for men is losing weight.  Massive weight loss often results in loose skin. After weight loss Plastic Surgery can help.

Another source of loose skin is loss of muscle mass common with age.  I have seen many athletes with loose tissues after no longer maintaining their build.


Hope this helps,

Michael Bermant, MD
Learn More About Gynecomastia and Chest Sculpture

[Bakajin]

I don't think stretch marks tend to look worse than scars and different people scar differently. Also, loose saggy breasts are only a consequence if you have surgery to begin with. I've known people who regretted having the surgery which left them with loose skin and terrible geometric scars when they tried to have it corrected. Even so, it's unlikely that this will necessarily happen so you might want to take your chances if gyno bothers you enough. After all, choosing not to have surgery might leave you with the feeling that you're not doing enough or are afraid to go under the knife.

loose skin is common for anyone who looses a large amount of mass whether its muscle, water, fat or gland.  Many people who lose large amounts of fat (such as myself) end up with loose skin, especially on their chest and stomach.  The same also occurs to some bodybuilders who are unable to maintain their muscle mass after reducing training and/or stopping drug use.  

often the loose skin results in a large amount of stretch marks which do usually look far worse than simple scars.  Scars are quite normal and a man should not exactly be scared or concerned about having a few.  Stretch marks on the other hand look very unnatural and can be quite embarrassing to both men and women.   They can be huge purple lines that indent quite deeply into the skin, almost like purple worms under the skin.  Running up my side I have a few that are over 20cm long and 1/2 cm wide, although in my case the colour has faded and they are no longer a concern of mine.  I've yet to see regular surgery scars that can match that.

[Hypo-is-here]

I think you are going too far in your statements Graham and they amount to scaremongering :-/

First of all you do not know if this particular operation will cause this result in any given person- you simply don't!

I have seen people who have had this procedure and they do not have what you are talking about.

I don't want to turn this into an argument I really don't, but I would ask that if you maintain your stance that you at least provide the statistical evidence that supports your belief.


Also may I say that even in cases where an individual does have geometric scars, quite often scars die down over the years until they are barely visable or do not look particularly disconcerting.

e.g

I have geometric scars as a result of a liver operation and they have died down completely.


As I say I don't want an argument an in fact i'm not going to indulge in one any further than I have in making this post (as I don't want to hijack the thread).  

I would hope that even if you totally disagree with me you can see where I am coming from and the reason for asking for such information from you.

P.S

Just my opinion nothing more.....

All this said and done I don't think people should have surgery unless there is an obvious issue- like obvious gynecomastia (only then if they decide they want to have surgery of their own bat).  I say this because in very minor cases of gynecomastia or loose skin the pros might not outweigh the cons.

In very minor cases I also think we have to be asking ourselves sometimes do we really need surgery?

I certainly think that bodybuilding and a narcisistic element that comes with such interests often comes into play in many cases and the thing to change in such cases is your mind set and the people you hang around with.

Peer pressure in these very limited circles is often intense, and they throw up viewpoints that are NOT remotely reflected in the REAL WORLD-  this pressure and these skewed views can be responsible for driving people into having surgery.

 

[Bakajin]

I'm still not sure why you fear these "geometric scars" so much. Scars are a pretty minor concern overall and I've yet to hear of many men of any age suffering serious social problems from having non-facial scars, whether geometric or not.  On the otherhand problems which cause a man's chest to appear feminine can be quite damaging to that persons confidence and mental well being.  

If you check the links I posted earlier then you can see that depending on the technique and skill of the surgeon the resulting scars can actually be quite minor.  even in more severe cases the benefits of attaining  a normal looking chest in terms of shape (both while wearing clothes and while barechested) far outweigh the risk of scars.  if can find an example of an operation where this was not true then I'd appreciate it if you could post the link.

btw it should be noted that doctors and surgeons are not automatically experts in all maters of medicine and surgery.  It really depends on what there training and experience is.  I've seen more than a few doctors and surgeons who recommend against any type of gyno surgery except in the most severe of cirumstances due to their fears of permanent disfigurement.

[Hypo-is-here]

Graham why do you have to be dogmatic and look for an argument in everything?

I’m going to comment on what you said because like ALWAYS you have run away with yourself and felt the need to argue and misrepresent the person talking to you.

What are you talking about? Read my posts carefully. I'm encouraging people to take the risk of surgery just like you've always wanted me to.
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No your not what your doing is stating that people have geometric scars from this procedure as though it is fact.  And it is not fact.  Which is why I asked you to produce evidence that details such.  The fact is we have no statistical data or information one way or the other.  You know of people that have these scars, I believe you (why should I try and argue with you pointlessly?)  However equally I have seen people who have had these procedures who have virtually no scarring at all.

You cannot state something as dramatic as you have without a factual basis- its just not on!!!


I said;
First of all you do not know if this particular operation will cause this result in any given person- you simply don't!

To which you said;

Yes I do. Also, my plastic surgeon said it would happen.
.

Graham how can I put this?

I don’t give a flying feck what your Plastic Surgeon has said!!!

The fact is I have seen this procedure done from a variety of plastic surgeons that have NOT shown the scarring your Plastic Surgeon is talking about so he is unequivocally wrong.


If you want evidence of this FACT! I will provide it and then you will see that this procedure can and is undertaken contrary to what your PS has said.  

Your P.S is one individual and I will provide information from world famous PSs to show what he is saying is NOT true if you want?

Given I can and will do this;

I ask again either produce the proof (it doesn’t exist by the way) that what you are saying is so or accept that you do not know whether any given individual will have this type of scarring.

If you cannot provide the proof and accept my sources in terms of factual information then you have to accept that you have overplayed your card and are guilty of misrepresenting the facts and of scaremongering.


By the way I am pizzed off to have to even reply to you in this thread as I did all I could to avoid such and gave you plenty of room for maneuver in order to save face and avoid any argument.  But you just cannot resist arguing with your bloody shadow!!!

To which you said;

I gave my opinion based on the people I know, what I've read and what my own plastic surgeon told me. If you're looking for an article published in the New England Journal of Medicine that confirms this before you will believe such scarring is possible; maybe even common, then I can't help you, sorry.
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Graham your crap when it comes to semantics so you shouldn’t bother trying it on with me.

If you had just spoken about the people you know/have spoken to and not misrepresented such a limited view as fact, then we would not be speaking as we are.  As for you P.S like I say I can place him at complete odds with other P.Ss which I am sure will have superior reputations on this matter and in fact can provide photographic evidence that shows that he or she is quite wrong.  

With regard to your sentence construction, you would not be doing me a favor as is implied by the end of your second sentence “then I cannot help sorry”, but you know this.

In providing the evidence I have requested you would be justifying your remarks with evidence.  

But you cannot justify your remarks with evidence can you?  

They die down a little sure, but I know people who've got clear scars even after 25 years.
.

You do not know people who have had these scars from this procedure after 25 years.

Also for every person that has scars that have lasted I could point to a person whose scars have faded.  But that is not the point is it?

The point is you have been saying if you have this procedure you WILL have these scars as told by your P.S, you are stating it as though it is a fact, like nght follows day.

And I am telling you that this is WRONG and that there is no evidence that shows that you will have geometric scars following this procedure.

Again I challenge you to support your claims!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I said quote;

I have geometric scars as a result of a liver operation and they have died down completely.

To which you say;

Not in quite as obvious and sensitive a place as your chest, I gather.
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Graham, you sound like you are you are trying to be a smart ass.  Not only that but you haven’t seen my scars so really that is quite an ignorant thing to say.  The fact is the scars I have are right across my abdomen in the shape of a Mercades Benz sign.  When I first had my operation they were as bright and obvious as any scars could be, it is just a fact that they have over the years lessoned (something that happens with many people) to the point where the scaring isn’t that obvious.  It has nothing to do with the site of the scar and everything to due with the course of time and the way it has faded.  Now please don’t try and tell me how it is again because that would just be even more ignorant.

Don't worry about a thing. Nobody is going to be dissuaded from having the surgery.  
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Well certainly not when they smell the BS no they wont.

If you stated the pros and cons in a more balanced way and presented the reality then people would listen to you properly and respect what you have to say.  Your words would then carry far more weight.

I mean look at what you have done yet again.

You have painted a one sided picture like a child because you don’t trust people enough to tell them the truth and let them make their own minds up.

You are going to call me pro surgery again because I have had to come out and SLAM the BS that you are coming out with.  You have again made me argue with you and sound pro surgery because eI have had to paint the true/full picture.  You would probably be better off arguing in an unreasonable pro surgery way and let me SLAM you for doing that- at least that way I would sound anti surgery.

I know exactly why you are asking for concrete scientific evidence because there's no reason to believe a risk exists otherwise. I'd like you to prove your contention that such scarring isn't an issue, though. I'm sure you know better than my plastic surgeon.
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You really aren’t good enough.  Like I said earlier you are not good enough with the semantics, certainly not to pass that BS off.

Should I remind you of the way the world works?

Yes I think I will.

People, scientists, companies, corporations, countries in fact EVERONE and EVERY ORGANISATION has to prove/substantiate theories, allegations, statements they claim to be fact/true.

You cannot prove a negative!!!

It is NOT and NEVER has been and NEVER will be the onus of those who disagree with such things to disprove/deny their existence.  

The onus/weight of substantiating such rests FIRMLY!!!!!! on those that wish to prove whatever it is they are claiming.

Otherwise I can claim;

That Mice actually run our universe and that we just don’t have the technology to show or prove such and ask you to prove that I am wrong.

That the inside of Jupiter is made out of a Taco and you have to show me otherwise.

That my masturbation habits alters the ecosystem of mainland Europe and causes avalanches in Aspen and you have to prove otherwise.

Or if surgery promises to cure them which I'm sure you'd agree it does.  
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Graham you are the most illogical man I have ever met.  I wish I could remove that dogmatic BS illogical part of brain out of your head with scalpel.

I have not said anyone in this thread should get this surgery never mind say anything will cure anyone of anything (exasperation).  I have in fact warned of the REAL issues that some people have, which if anything would have been considered by some as anti surgery.

But of course you can’t see what is in front of our nose.

I am pro choice.  I never tell people to get surgery, I occasionally tell people not to get it if I don’t think they have a significant issue….but generally I just leave people to it and in any event NEVER tell people they have to do what I say.

I am pro choice and pro information, as information empowers people to make informed decisions.

So Yea I am also anti BS!!!!

In minor cases, there's unlikely to be that much loose skin. Ironically, the ones who will suffer most are those you encourage to have surgery (non-minor cases) and are left with a lot of loose skin. They will then have to get an excision and risk the geometric scars.
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They you go again!!!! (exasperation)  Don’t let reality get in the way Graham for god sake!!!

A)      we have been talking about a certain type of surgery relating to a breast lift and I have never spoken in a thread of this type before apart from on one other occasion.  That was where I recommended the individual concerned not to have surgery (because he looks good prior to surgery IMHO).   But I made my point and shut up because I am not him and it is his choice not mine.  

B)      When referring to regular gynecomastia surgery please provide me with ANY posts where I am the one who recommends surgery as opposed to the individual telling me first that is what they are going to do or want

I only talk surgery when the original poster has already expressed his decision to go that route.

Again I am asking for evidence of your claims, show me where I do what you say in supporting surgery-  SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!

C)      Why does Excision have to produce geomentric scars?  WTF are you talking about?

Again show me why excision produces this with a competent surgeon!!!

Very minor cases? So it's necessary for just 'minor' cases, then?
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Graham you are trying to play with words again (pure semantics) and frankly I think I have already made such a pr1ck out of you that I feel too embarrassed to do it again.

Another thing that drives people to have surgery is false promises from self-appointed experts without credentials.

A)      Come out and state that you are speaking about me instead of trying to use insinuation in such an unsubtle way like a horrible snide man.
B)      Show me where I have claimed even once!!!!! that I am a doctor or that I am anything other than a lay person when it comes to these issues COME ON!!!!!!!!!!
C)      You are the one who is trying to represent a one sided opinion in this thread as fact not me
D)      I am just asking for the evidence that substantiates your opinion are fact as opposed to mere opinion.

So in conclusion SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!

Give me the substantiating facts/proof.


P.S

I was trying my best to speak in a reasonable measured tone so that a sensible, friendly and considered conversation could take place.  I shouldn’t have been so fecking stupid to think that you were capable of such.

Sorry everyone (faith in human nature slightly eroded :-/

[Hypo-is-here]

No, Hypo. You have the habit of hijacking threads I'm on and throwing wild accusations of me being anti-surgery as you always have.

First of all this is NOT your thread, you did not start it.  When you enter a thread and maliciously start spreading BS don’t think someone wont pull you up over it because they will!

With regard to your second point you have openly admitted on these forums that you are anti surgery.  Do you want me to go and find your exact words and ram them down your throat?

Because I will!

Just say the word and it will be so!

I stated my opinion on the matter based on my experience and what I've been told by surgeons. Since when is stating one's opinion unacceptable here? I don't see you pouncing on anyone else when they practically guarantee surgery will cure gyno and even you know that is bullsh*t.  

There is no problem with stating your experiences or your opinions.  But you were not doing that you were misrepresenting your opinions and experience as fact.

This was greatly overstepping the mark!!!!  

Oh please shut the f*ck up about your statistical data. Do you think everything that is said on these boards has statistical data to back it up? Do you think stuff that doesn't have statistical data is necessarily untrue?

Again stop trying to bend the reality of what has gone on here. If you had just stated your opinion and experiences then we wouldn’t be having this conversation.  You represented your opinions and experiences as though they were fact and they are NOT.  When you state something is a fact it is perfectly reasonable for someone to ask you to prove that your statements are such.

You cannot do that of course as your statements were NOT fact and you are trying to weasel out of it.

Like I said, you don't have to worry about anyone being dissuaded from having the surgery. There are enough people here including you (our almighty expert on everything in the world of medicine) to assure them surgery will be perfect in every conceivable way or at least hide as much information about the negatives as possible.

Show me one instance where I have tried to prove the safety or otherwise of surgery.

Show me!

I am not doing that, but again you don’t let reality  get in your way do you Graham?

You can’t see the wood for the trees.

Every time you spread BS I will mop it up and make a grade A pr1ck out of you, you can count on it!!

If you don’t continue to present a one sided picture you will see a balanced position from everyone else.  The fact is my first post in this thread was about as balanced as any post you will find on these boards, it was neither pro or anti surgery, but pro choice.  The only reason I sound pro surgery now is because I have had to react to the crap you have smeared.

Do you not understand that your crap polarizes the discussion?

So you're a plastic surgeon too now?

Ha ha.  By which logic I assume you should have to shut up as well as you are not a surgeon either

My posts are a denial of what you are preaching.  You have A) No proof for what you are preaching and B) I have photographic evidence from surgeons that prove that what you are saying is in fact wrong.  So whilst I am not a plastic surgeon I can show the evidence from plastic surgeons that proves you and your PS are in fact wrong!!!!

Really? I was shown pictures of those who did have the scarring and he was right when he said, "I would not want that".

You are saying that you have seen surgery pictures of people with scarring.  I am saying that I have seen the opposite.
But you are saying that this procedure causes this scarring- fact.

How can it be a fact in all cases as you have presented when I can show you the opposite is also true?

I have never said that these procedures cannot cause scarring. If I did say that you would have as much of a point as I do and neither of us would be right or wrong- we would each be a bit of both.  As it is you have said that scarring follows operation as though it is a fact like night follows day.  But this is not so as I can and am willing to prove!!!!!!!

You see the way I did that?

You see the way when I represented something as a fact I was/am willing to prove it.  In a nutshell that is the difference between you and me.  I am logical and base everything on reality, proof and evidence and you are full of BS and away with the fairies!!!

You cannot provide any such 'evidence'; only examples of people who didn't scar as badly. If then someone shows you examples of those who did, it blows your case out of the water. Of course most plastic surgeons don't make a habit showing people the bad ones because then they won't get your business.  

No your argument blows nothing out of the water and I will show you why.

It was your contention that factually scarring was the result of these procedures.  So logically all I have to do is show that these procedure have been done without scarring and I have proved your claims to be false and factually unsound.

I am willing and can indeed do that.

So you are utterly wrong and your entire claim smashed to pieces!!!

Also it is for you to show your contention as to how often scarring occurs (geometric scarring as you put it).  You have to provide the evidence for that.  If you cannot do that we have to presume it is because you have no evidence and if you have no evidence then your claims are only opinion and a limited view and NOT the facts that you claim them to be.

Do you see how it works yet?

You cannot bandy about the word fact like it is your fecking plaything.  When you use the word fact you have to be able to substantiate such with evidence/proof.

I'm sorry but I can't afford world famous PSes for my surgeries.

Well neither can I, but I can afford to garner there advice and information when it is free.

So your point is what exactly?

And how does it alter the facts?

It is you, Hypo who cannot refrain from getting into an argument with me.

I think if people take a look at my first post and see how balanced it was and then view your response and what you have been saying they will judge all they need to know for themselves.

Are you trying to prove a 'negative'? You think showing some examples of mild scarring somehow disproves that other people might scar quite badly due to skin excission? For someone who claims to be so scientific, you sure seem to know very little about what constitutes proof or disproof about a matter.  

Semantics again.  You are no using the word “might”, fecking might!! Before you were laying it out as a statement of fact.  You are trying to metaphorically wiggle out of what it is you have actually been saying and I’m not allowing you to do that.

I am also not trying to prove a negative.  You made a statement as though it was an absolute.  I have evidence that it is NOT an absolute therefore your claims are false.

e.g

If you said everyone who is shot dies and I am shot an I do not die I know your claim is not true.  The same can be said here because you have been saying that you do get geometric scars with this surgery and I have seen people who have not.

Like I've said in the past, apart from being a medical expert, you also claim to be psychic.

A)      Show me once where I have claimed to be a medical expert.  I have made thousands of posts, show me where this evidence is- just one example!!
B)      Show me once where I have claimed to be a psychic- just one example!!
C)      FACT, I do not claim to be a psychic, FACT 2 you claim that you can reduce gynecomastia by mind control which is hilariously retarded!!!!

You just don't get the point, Hypo. People planning to go for surgery don't want to keep hearing rosy tales from people who've had everything go wonderfully right. They want and need to know what could go wrong and the risks involved. Good doctors will make this clear and good people will too.

People want to hear the reality and that means the good with the bad.  The whole pictrure.  What they do not want is too hear some one-sided twisted malevolent opinion dressed up as facts whether it is pro surgery or in your case anti surgery.

People want to make informed decisions.   To do that they need to be empowered by the reality and you don’t do reality.

In fact you treat people as children; you do not trust them enough to offer them the truth.  You want them to do your biding and that is it.

They WILL have scars. It's only a question of how badly.

Semantics.  You originally said.

Usually, the trade off between removing the excess skin and scarring isn't worth it because the latter just looks too bad

And that is one-sided BS!!!!!!!!!

So are you saying that there will be no scarring at all or just that they won't be geometric? In your frenzy to make everything sound rosy, I think you might have misrepresented yourself.  

Unlucky.  See above and your own prior language which was totally different from what you are now trying to represent.  I have told you before you are not clever enough with the semantics.  In fact the longer this goes on the more I am making a complete idiot out of you.

Once again Hypo you are bringing in irrelevant examples from your own personal experience. There's a difference between scarring on your ass and scarring on your forehead. Does that make my point cleared to you?

Obviuosly I have to point out yet again that you have never saw my scarring so you are talking from a totally ignorant position.

When you're at the beach, your chest is exposed and any scars you have there will show and affect your self-esteem especially if they scream, "I've had some kind of surgery".

My surgery and the scars are right across my abdomen from just under the chest they extend right over the right and right over to the left- A fecking huge Mercades Benz sign in effect.  Now when the scars were new they were vibrant and as obvious as ANY gynecomastia scars, if anything a lot moreso as they are way deeper and larger.  If I was stood on the beach in the past you would have noticed this more than any gyne scars and I can say that as a fact.  So shut the feck up!!! How ignorant can you get suggesting otherwise when you haven’t even seen.  You are the master of the illogical point aren’t you!!!

Oh and whoops that’s right you would see them on a beach too wouldn’t you?

Or do you wear special tops where only your moobs are out and your torso cannot be seen?

The reason my scars are not seen easily now is due to the way they have died down over the years NOT because of the location.  Now do not try and say otherwise you ignorant pr1ck!!!!

I did state the pros. You just chose not to read them.

BS.

No, Hypo. You have swooped in with your rosy tales of how everything will be perfect and presented one-sided tales of people who've had everything work out nicely. You have not bothered to mentioned the risk of such procedures when everyone knows they exist. You've tried your very best to keep them quiet and silence those who bring them up.

Really.

Show me where these rosy tales of surgery perfection are.  Again evidence boyo!!!

I tell you what I can do I can show you the fact that in the only other thread of this nature I said I didn’t think the guy should get surgery.  Now I can show you that.  Can you go and get one example of me telling someone to do the opposite??

I challenge you to do that come on again SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!

You only 'slam' stuff you think might dissuade people from surgery. If you're so balanced, why don't we see you coming in to correct others when they present only the pros of surgery?  

Maybe you don’t see what is under your nose.  Would you like me to provide the examples?  I am willing to provide proof of such.  I am kind of odd that way I always have no problem backing up what I say with a little thing called evidence and reality

Give us a break. You will never slam anyone who is pro-surgery no matter how ridiculous they sound. You never have which is why I am here.

See above answer- I can and will provide the evidence if you want that is contrary to your assertions.

Oh and Graham.  Your not here to provide balance.

You might not be aware of it but you’re here to be a moron and pursue your own anti surgery agenda.

For any poor guy reading this go and do a search of Graham Ash and find out how many of his posts relate solely to negative surgery threads.  You will find approximately 90 percent of his postings are one sided outbursts.  

Now do a search on me and see what you find.  It will be a variety of subjects and it will be balanced opinions and claims of fact only when I can prove what I am saying is in fact- fact Haha.

And you're not good enough a medical expert... wait, you're NOT a medical expert at all... to pontificate the pros of surgery as if it were coming from the best doctors in the world.

Graham you have presented supposed statements of fact, all I am doing is saying they are NOT fact and I know this and can prove this via photographic evidence from plastic surgeons.

This is a public forum, not the New England Journal of Medicine as I keep reminding you. In fact, I'm sure there's much you have pontificated without the evidence you now claim to require but people have grown to 'trust' you when they shouldn't. You'll forgive me if I take the word of my plastic surgeon whom I saw in person and who would in fact, have operated on me if chose to go ahead with it anyway.

Your PS according to you is stating that if you have a breast lift you get geometric scars.

If I show you photographic evidence that from a plastic surgeon who is world famous who you can speak to so that he may confirm that the photographs are real………………….if I do that will you concede that your PS is wrong and that in fract you have been entirely wrong in these claims.

Please a simple YES or NO will suffice.

I'm stating my opinion based on what I know because someone asked. I'm not trying to 'prove' anything. You have jumped to that conclusion because you're afraid people might decide not to have surgery and you certainly can't have that for God-only-knows what reason.

Come now!!!  You really need to cut the smoke and mirrors because I will always keep my eye on the rabbit Haha.

You have indeed been trying exactly that which you deny.  You have been trying to prove that your statements were facts, you are guilty of misrepresenting your opinions as such.

Please stick to the issue at hand. You've clearly demonstrated in your above posts that you don't know what constitutes scientific proof of something anyway.

Can I have permission to officially pizz my pants.  


Graham you are a fool who plays with words, a man who is all sound and thunder, and no action or trousers    

How many things have I asked you to prove?  

I must have asked you to prove dozens of your statements.    

How many of these things will you prove

I say you will prove none and ignore all

Your next post will be more requoting of my statements.

Now ok I have done this of you.  

But in my defense I have stated numerous times that I can and will provide proof that you are wrong and in fact am willing to provide evidence for all my statements of fact

You on the other hand we both know will ignore all my questioning, all my requests for proof and substantiating evidence.


You throw mud like a child, you make claims.  But you cannot prove a single one of them can you, you know it to such a degree that it is my bet that you will not even attempt to offer answers.  You will just offer more vacuous hyperbole.  

I on the other hand can and will make good and any and all statements of fact that I have made if asked


Regarding surgery you say;

You've just assured them that it's perfectly safe with virtually no risk involved at all. Hell, even doctors don't say that for cosmetic procedures.  

Oh boy….again I say show me where I have done this (you wont you will ignore this as with all other requests for proof

BULLSH*T! Your intention couldn't be clearer. Get everyone committed to surgery by convincing them it's the only solution.

I am not in the ex-files and there is no conspiracy.  You sound like a bloke I once saw who used to delivery groceries, he was sure everyone was out to get him.

You're just making a pr*ck out of yourself, Hypo and if you push it, I'll expose you for the nonsensical nut with a personal agenda that you are, like I have in the past. Remember? You even left one time and said you wouldn't come back. Oh wait... you said that 3 times and broke your word every time.

[/quote]

Hilarious.

You have just been made to look like the biggest fool this website has ever seen.  Keep swinging for the fences though I admire the spirit if nothing else, one day you might actually hit something other than yourself.  As for me leaving this site I once left because of people like you and the BS they push on people.  But don’t give yourself so much credit as to think it was down to you.  You were just one idiot I had to suffer in an inexhaustible line of idiots on this site who pushed an peddled everything from slimming pills to anabolic steroids etc.  I had over a thousand posts before you and I will have over a thousand when you are gone.

I know I have seriously helped people.

I know they would be willing to come forward and vouch for me.  As you say a lot of people trust me and no one trusts you.

It is abundantly obvious to all why that is.


P.S

No spell checking when going through a size of post like that, so please excuse any typos.

I know you will offer more words Graham but still no proof and no answer to any of the questions I have raised.  I am of course only too willing to provide proof for anything I have stated as fact.

[Hypo-is-here]

As it stands I am fairly well though of on this site having helped a lot of people and most people think you’re a complete idiot.  I’m reducing my reputation by continuing to be associated with you and this endless requoting given its futile nature.

I want to end this with proof/evidence answers and facts, not spinning around endlessly requoting one another.  I am not prepared to indulge you any further.

Place the supposed proof and answers to my questions in bullet points concisely and I will do the same.

And then people can judge what is worthy and what isn’t.

Do NOT write a single statement that is not a bullet point detailing an answer to the questions I have asked.

I will do the same for you.

Ok?

Separately….

You always spend FAR more time on these boards when you find someone to argue with, you should ask yourself why that is.

In fact I would love you to compile a list of the people you have actually helped on this site because as far as I know you haven't helped anybody.

Seriously can you name some of the people you have helped?  I know I could name over a hundred members EASILY- how about you?

If you put a list together I will

The only reason I say this is maybe you will actually think and question what the hell you are doing here given this is a support group :-/

P.S

Like I said if you can’t answer the questions I have put in bullet points adding nothing else, as I said I will do the same for you, then I am walking away from you.