Mind Control

[zarathustra]

I guess, like you, I feel like if my gyno was gone, I'd be so much happier.  Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty happy when compared to most, but I do sometimes feel like gyno is the root of all the problems I do have.

This is a foolish notion though.  Which I guess you support when you say things like self contentment is a hippy concept.

Which I don't believe...  I think it's RARE, but certainly possible.  And I do believe that meditation is the path (or one very viable path) to it.

[hypo]

We have not been talking about whether meditating can calm individuals down or offer some form of contentment or reduce stress.

What has been said is that it is possible for an individual to significantly control their internal biology, via mind control.

The two are a world away from each other.  I have no problem with the former and I have every problem with the latter as it is;

Quite frankly a load of tosh!!!

And I am not ignorant for saying this.

There is no onus on me to disprove anything, that is not the way of the world.

If you are postulating a theory or new discovery in science, medicine, industry etc- doesn't really matter what, the onus rests firmly with those presenting what is new to prove what they are saying to be true.

It is for those individuals to present their findings and for those findings to withstand scientific scrutiny.

And Graham or no one else for that matter has done that regarding mind control- in the world- ever!

This phenomenon does not exist- it is mumbo jumbo, it is sitting in pentagrams, it has no more factual basis than a pagan praying to a sun god or a witch doctor in Africa examining the intestines of a goat in order to predict the future.

There is no scientific fact to say that mind control is any more legitimate than the above that I have mentioned, so don't bother taking pot shots at the connections I have made unless you are going to provide this miraculous proof that as yet has not been seen by man.

Like I said there is not one shred of scientific evidence whatsoever that any of it is anything more than nonsense, conjecture, assumptions, coincidences etc.

Graham said he is not saying mind control would be a cure for cancer, why not?

If the body can shrink glandular mass, why not a tumor?

Please explain why mind control is supposedly able to alter one biological material but not the other?

Detailed answer please if possible, explaining the processes involved- or at least a basic layout as you believe the processes to be.

Now I know that the power of thought does not cure cancer, but then again I equally know it does not cure gynecomastia as well

I don't think that anyone would like to say it could shrink tumors and cure cancer because that could paint you in a very dark light, but come on, from a logical standpoint explain why can't you do this if it works?

Now you can hurl mud at me and call me ignorant all you like, but without any scientific/medical evidence at all, you are implying that the only way for me to not be ignorant is to take what you are saying on faith.

Since when is taking something on faith remotely scientific?

How am I ignorant for asking for proof?

P.S

I am not closed minded at all.  If I am presented with poof that substantiates such claims then I’ll accept them.

I just feel somehow that that isn't going to happen, don't you

If you don't startle me with amazing evidence I think I will continue to trust in proven medicine, with proven success rates and leave mind control, pentagrams, fortune cookies, satanic rituals, pagan festivals, witch doctors and all that jazz to others who have lower standards when it comes to proof and the burdon thereof- to the gullible

Awaiting a one-line response without like incorrigible or something else equally dismissive and lame.


P.S

On a separate and more serious note (I do not take this thread seriously for one second) have you posted your pics Graham?

I would be genuinely interested to see how your gynecomstia is in comparison to mine, given that it sounds as though we both have moderate cases.

I'll show you mine if you show me you'res and I'll show first if you want

I said that to a girl once when I was eight but it involved different body parts

[zarathustra]

Of course there is no scientific proof for mind control.
You don't need to keep iterating that fact.

And I never meant offence when I said you were talking from an ignorant perspective.  I meant that WE ALL are talking from an ignorant perspective when it comes to mind control.  Not just you.

Bottom line I think we differ in views because of the following...

You think something is worthless unless it stands the test of scientific scrutiny.

I think something has worth BEFORE it stands the test of scientific scrutiny.

Why?  Because science is not the be all and end all of knowledge.

If you're going to call mind control witchcraft, so be it.
But then you may as well call Newtonian Mechanics witchcraft as well since it certainly doesn't stand up to the test of scientific scrutiny either.

However do we still use Newtonian Mechanics to launch rockets into space?  You're damn right we do.  Why?  Because despite SCIENCE, Newtonian Mechanics is awfully useful.  Even though we know it's wrong.

And despite science, many other practices could prove awfully useful too.

ie.  mind control to reduce/resolve gyno, or sure, even cancer or any other physical ailment.

In the end, it doesn't hurt to try.  Even if science hasn't said it's okay.

I guess I see it this way...  Even before there was scientific evidence of evolution, the idea of evolution was not worth any less.  It was still just as applicable to the world then as it is now, when it does have scientific verifications.  Science did nothing to the actual idea of evolution.  All it did was validate it within some allowable error.  ie.  ummm we're 99% sure evolution exists...

I'm sure many people scoffed at the idea of man coming from monkies...  calling it witchcraft and all other sorts of nonsense...  but that doesn't mean evolution wasn't worthwhile before the proofs started pouring in.

Now replace evolution with mind control.  

In the end I'm not saying either side is right or wrong, but I am saying that no one can discredit the other.  To do so would be close-minded.  And the past has shown that calling another's idea's ridiculous solely on the fact that it has no scientific verification is foolish.  So please stop with all the witchcraft talk.  It's not very nice.

[hypo]

To make out poof, evidence and scientific validation of theories are not important in the way you have is to give rise to every snake charmer, charlatan and shyster in existence.

It is to turn the world on its head and accept whatever anyone says on the basis of faith and belief as opposed to scientific reasoning and logic.

I am not ignorant on this in any way shape or form and you really can drop the hippy far out Ooooer who knows vibe

If you believe mind control with zero scientific proof, then presumably if I tell you that I have seen in my minds eye that the inside of Jupiter is made out of a Taco, presumably how ever unbelievable this is, you would have to take my       assertion as possible and on faith as well- right?

I mean there is scientifically and logically no difference between that and mind control.  Just as there is no scientific or logical reasoning to believe that this mind control bunkam is any more credible than praying to the sun or the moon.

And there is an awful lot of physics that stand behind Newton, who was prepared to try and substantiate his theories with evidence and proof, something you two guys seem to have dispensed with.

I think I will return to the real world now.

One last thing before I go.  Zarathustra you seem to have this idea that people just find something to be unhappy about whether that is gynecomastia or something else.

But that is just rubbish isn’t it?

I mean before my gynecomastia grew worse in the last couple of years as a results of testosterone deficiency I was happy with my body.  So 29 years worth of having no complaint changed as a result of increasing gynecomastia.  When it is gone I will undoubtedly return to being happy with my body as I was for the preceding 28 years.

So what you’re talking is rubbish because it is really overly simple psychology isn’t it, one hideous   generalization.

Maybe I missed something…..      

P.S

Some people would call you Wackos

Not me- you might use your mind control to increase my gynecomastia

[jc71]

Graham - I checked out Jose Silva's site.  Interesting stuff.  He's coming to my town in October but wants $450.  Have you been to any of his seminars or have you bought any of his books on mind control?

One more thing.  I noticed Hypo posted and it triggered a memory.  Recently you pubically posted something that basically said hypo is forming a lynch mob to get you off the boards and he's testing my loyalty to him. What does that mean? Testing loyalty?  :-/

Rummor has it that hypo hangs out with Merle and Simon about once a month to drink a few beers in the UK.

Don't know if it's true, it's just what i've heard.  

I'd be careful, hypo may have enough pull to get you kicked off the boards.

And as far as that mind control stuff.  Silva's site looked more like testimonials from people who say it worked for them.  Do you know of any other's I can check out? Maybe there's something to this stuff after all.  If it doesn't get rid of my gyne, maybe it can make my mind more peaceful.

[zarathustra]

I don't think I said I believed in mind control...  
I don't believe in it nor do I have faith in it.
Likewise I wouldn't believe you if you told me Jupiter was a taco.

However, I do see possibility with both ideas, yes.
There is a chance mind control will work.
There is a chance Jupiter is a giant taco.  
There is a chance every snake charmer, charlatan and shyster in existence speaks truth.

Who am I to judge?
Who is science to judge?

All I'm saying is, we as a society have been very rash in the past, and all too quickly followed the paradigm of the day as though it were absolutely true...  Christianity and science to name the last two big ones for the western world..

No paradigm as of yet has proven absolute (including science).  So how can we hold what it says to such a high standard?

I guess I just get uneasy when people start calling fanciful ideas rubbish.  Because it has happened in the past.  And that 'rubbish' has often ended up turning the world onto its head.

But you are right.  Keeping such an open mind does open you to what are probably very ridiculous ideas.  ie.  jupiter is a taco.  

In the end, you just have to go with your gut and believe what feels right to you.

But whatever you do, don't tell other people they're wrong just because of some fallible, transient paradigm that you ascribe to.  That's what I can't allow.

And as for the psychological generalization, sure, it was a generalization, but I think it fits most individuals nonetheless.
I'm talking about total self, not just your physical self.
Right now gyno causes me a lot of distress.
If I were to cure it, logically those distresses would cease.
However, I do believe life experience will tell everyone that distress itself will NOT cease with the resolution of gyno.  I would, like everyone says, forget about the pains of life with gyno and in that sense be cured.  However, new distresses will come and being human, I will focus on them probably as much as I focus on my gyno now.
But yeah, I'm just talking about suffering in general here..

We are predisposed to focus on suffering.  That's all I'm saying.  And I don't think you can deny that.....  Suffering will never end.
Unless you become enlightened or something equally farfetched.  

[zarathustra]

I'd be hesitant to trust someone who offers mind control abilitities with a pricetag....

It seems to me that someone who has such abilities would be above and beyond something as superficial as money.

In the end, I'd just learn some very basic calming/concentration techniques (for free online), and then go from there on a personal adventure.

Trust in yourself.  That's all you need.

[Fr1dayGTA]

Tibetan monks sleep in the snow and they control there body temperature so that they melt the snow around them and dont die of hypothermia.
sounds like mind over matter.
Theres lots of cases of it you hear it all the time.
Hypnosis can help impulsive disorders etc.
No idea if its true or what scientific basis it has.

Dont spout philosophy just cause you read one nietszche book Zara but ... do keep reading them your on the right track heheh.

Nietzche was a philosopher who was phyically fit or at least physically normal and his philosophy belongs to a person as such. What we have is problems of a different kettle of fish ... imo  

[ASRel]

Well I believe that ones own mind has an effect on the functions of his/her body that you normally don't think you could control.

Here's my (rather silly) example:

I have a incredibly fast metabolism, so I have to visit the bathroom very frequently, and it's pretty annoying, especially when you're spending most of the day away from home and you have to use those dirty public bathrooms.

So, one day I noticed that sometimes I wouldn't have to go as often.. and I found the connection, if I didn't *think* about having to go, I didnt... Sounds stupid, but I found it to work. I remmeber trying an experiment for a couple of days where I ate stuff that usually made it worse ( pizza, McD's, etc. ) but decided not to think about it, and let my body tell me when I have to go... things were normal!

It was like I was telling my body that I had to go with me trying to plan out  my day.

I have a feeling 90% of the people are going to laugh at my example... but at least I made some people laugh

[hypo]

Graham I can do one of two things here and I will leave it to you to decide what you would have me do.

I can either leave this discussion because it is quite stupid and boring, but only if you understand that this is because it is stupid and boring as opposed to being unable to answer your points.

Or,

As I have done in every single discussion we have ever had, I can address every one of your points and like pulling the wings off of a fly tear your pathetic musings apart.

If it is was up to me I would quite frankly rather not bother, but I am not doing that for one second in a way that leaves you feeling that you have gained anything.

P.S

If you choose the latter history will repeat itself, I assure you.

[zarathustra]

If your counter arguments are all based on the infallibility of the scientific method then I guess this should end here.

Fr1dayGTA:

My name has no intentional connection to Nietzche and likewise my posts had no intentional allusions to his philosophy..  Just curious why you would bring Nietzche into the picture...  But if you're talking about my suffering rant, I don't think it really matters if the philosopher was in good physical health.  In the end, suffering is suffering and all humans will undergo similar cycles, physically content or not.  I guess I don't really like when people tell me I'm being amateur and then don't tell me how.  

And one question, how do you know Nietzche didn't have gyno?  An old swim chum of his were you?

[hypo]

Way out of my league, mind my own business.

Ok ripping the argument apart- here goes!!!

Graham quote
Yes, it's possible. And this claim (rephrased from what you said above) by the way, need not be subject to scientific proof because it lies within the realm of 'possibilities'. Additionally, there IS evidence showing that people are able to use their minds to heal better and even cure certain illnesses. You can read about stuff like this or even watch it on the Discovery Channel like jc71 said he did in the very first post.
Unquote

Firstly dealing with your claims that proof is not required;

For the claims of anyone to be taken seriously when suggesting any new discovery, theory, phenomenon etc they have to be proven with substantiating evidence which proves the case.

So it is complete claptrap to say something exists in the realms of possibility and so does not need to be proven.

Like I have said if this were the case anyone could say anything and you couldn’t question it.  I could say that the inside of Jupiter is made from a Taco because it could be possible.

Like I have said, to make out poof, evidence and scientific validation of such things to be unimportant, is to give rise to every snake charmer, charlatan and shyster in existence.

It is to turn the world on its head and accept whatever anyone says on the basis of faith and belief as opposed to scientific reasoning and logic.

Secondly dealing with your about face turn where you say there is evidence;

A)Make your mind up, B) provide the evidence to the media and I’ll await the big news reports C) explain why none of this supposed evidence has ever hit the news or D) is used in medicine.

Graham Quote
Do you believe in God, Hypo? The onus is now on you to prove that your God exists. Don't try to adopt a staunch scientific stance on one matter whilst ignoring it on another. Or are you perhaps an atheist these days?
Unquote

You presume too much, I am and always have been an atheist.  

I see nothing to sneer at in that.

Given the very personal nature of people’s beliefs in god, I will not get into such discussions because A) they may give rise to offense, B) it is widening the discussion beyond its remit and C) my thoughts are, if I am not going to sneer at your religious beliefs you should sneer in my disbelief in such.

Graham Quote
Here you are making a positive claim. You say this phenomenon 'does not exist'. Now, you must prove it doesn't exist. This is the method of science, or didn't you know? The smarter thing to have said would be, "we don't know if mind control really works".
Unquote

Nice try.

Your using and illogical point and building on it with a logical one

The premise in science, medicine and every field of academic research is that if you do not prove the existence of a discovery, phenomenon, theory etc with substantiating evidence (proof) it is taken not to exist or be correct.

The onus does not shift irrespective of the use of my language, pretty ridiculous to suggest it does

Graham Quote
The same can be said of God. I suppose you will now put your money where your mouth is and become an apostate.
Unquote

Shaking my head…..again you presume too much, I do not believe in god and this is not a discussion about religion so stop trying to widen the debate beyond its original remit.

Graham Quote
Because we haven't figured out the exact mechanisms by which mind control works - or even IF what's happenening is what we think it is in the first place. Before you start trying to sell a cure for cancer, you should have more to go on than the experiences of a minority group (those who have tried mind control and it works for them).
Unquote

No one who is credible in the scientific community believes in mind control.  No one who is credible in any government in the world believes in mind control and there is no money investigating mind control.

You know why?

Because it doesn’t exist.

If you want to show me differently, like I say provide the evidence that substantiates this phenomenon to the media and I’ll await the news reports that prove your case


You said you are not taking this mind control on faith.

Well without substantiating evidence that categorically proves its existence that is exactly what you are doing.

Here I’ll give you one of the definitions of faith;

Faith-    Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

You believe in this without logical proof or material evidence, therefore you are taking this on faith- by the very definition of the word!

Graham Quote
There IS evidence. Actual scientific proof is something else and we don't have it because the necessary research into mind control has not been done. Also, it's possible we don't even have the technology or fundamental principles yet that might shed more light onto this phenomenon. It's just like if you wanted to invent the television back in 1750, you couldn't because we had no idea of the underlying mechanisms that are essential to wireless data transmission in the first place.
Unquote

Graham that is the cop out of all cop out answers.

So you are saying there is evidence but it isn’t good enough to stand up to scientific scrutiny and prove the case.

This is a circus act/fortune teller response.  If there was evidence it could prove the case, by proving the existence of the phenomenon in at least one individual.  

The fact is, your comments are a get out clause for people to say oh yes there is evidence of mind control.  Ah but can you show me this evidence under sound scientific, tamper proof conditions- answer NO!!!

It has never been done in the world EVER!!!

The later part of the argument that perhaps the technology isn’t available yet;

To that I say, I could use the same fatuous argument to say that the following is true;

Ghosts exist, pots of gold are at the end of rainbows, the inside of Jupiter is made from a Taco etc

It is a fatuous argument.

Just entertaining it for a second (suspending disbelief)

If an individual can control their body via mind control- what technology would possibly required?  What principle would need to be understood?

If we have an aim/objective, for someone to control their body with mind control and they can do this time and time again under strict scientific conditions we would have to conclude that the phenomenon existed at least in one case.

But this has never been done- ever!

So there you go.

Graham Quote
Your counter-argument could have been summarized in one line.  
Unquote

So you criticize me for following the doctrine followed by everyone from Einstein to Stephen Hawking.  They would be asking for the same scientific proof, but I guess by the same logical token they are idiots as well :-/

Referring, to my quote in which I compared mind control to the inside of Jupiter being made from a taco- if no evidence is required to prove either.

Graham Quote
Again, another wild and ridiculous comparison. There isn't, 'zero scientific proof' of mind control, as you say. There is evidence of what appears to be mind control and the concept is well known. The only thing missing is proving it to a scientific certainty and this is most likely because such research does not get funding from those who are themselves
Unquote

My comparison was to highlight a simple point, to show that anyone can go around saying anything exists if categorical proof is dispensed with and not required.

You have said nothing that shows mind control is any more likely to be true than those who say ghosts exist.  You have shown zero evidence and so if I say the inside of Jupiter is made form a Taco, it is just as legitimate as your claims unless you can provide substantiating evidence that shows mind control to be anything other than complete fantasy

Can you do me a favor regarding all this?  Can you get the story straight so it is better for the next time you tell it?  As it is you keep contradicting yourself.

One minute, you’re saying you don’t have to provide any evidence, then you’re saying there is evidence but no scientific proof, now you are saying there is scientific proof but it is not enough- all that is in one post.

It is difficult to debate with someone who can’t even get their own story right

You say conventional wisdom skeptics like me. You say it like a sneer; you are also sneering at Stephen Hawking and just about every scientist, academic and government in the world).

I like all of them am clearly an idiot

In the absence of proof I should take it on faith like you and then I wouldn’t be an idiot- right

Graham Quote
There is no direct, tangible industrial benefit of mind control either so that reduces the chances of funding even further
Unquote

The mind boggles further, you’re hilarious.  Now as you may have gathered I don’t believe in any of this for a second, but please explain how if it did exist, why there would be no tangible benefits?

In doing so, given that the technology that you hinted at earlier may not exist yet how do you know this to be so  

Graham Quote
Not to mention governments are quick to dismiss it, like you have. And we all know governments are very smart.
Unquote

Right I didn’t realize you were into conspiracy theories as well Haha

You do know the X-files was a fictional drama right?


Oh where are your points now  

[zarathustra]

Wow.  This argument is going in circles...

Hypo says A, Graham says B, Hypo says A, Graham says B...

Like I said a long time ago:

Hypo, you need science to say ok before an idea becomes legitimate.  That's completely understandable what with science being the currently accepted method of determining truth.

HOWEVER, Graham doesn't require this scientific nod.
This is also completely understandable because science is not infallible, has in fact been wrong MANY times in the past, and also does not have the theoretical and practical ability to achieve many ends - ie interstellar travel, time travel, curing cancer, mind control.. many other abilities that are far beyond our grasp, but at the same time, very possible.

Why is it so hard for you to see that both of you are looking at this situation from different, yet both completely acceptable perspectives?

I think you both just despise? eachother and the real conflict goes beyond this superficial one....

[Vizia]

Wow, this is one deep thread. Because it's late, I didn't get to read all of it, but I sure as hell am when I get a chance because there's some interested stuff being talked about. It's nice to know there's still people that "think outside the box".

[Grandpa Bambu]

Occasionally, I get wicked quad and inner thigh cramps. Excruciating pain at times . After reading this thread in its early stages, I had a two cramps. Both times I said to myself, "There's no cramp, there's no cramp." Both times the cramp went away before it got real painful. D@mn, maybe this mind control stuff really works!  

John.