Does this site have non-surgical information for gynecomastia

[Sven]

I did give the Raloxifene as well as the Tamoxifen a shot.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to detail your experience.  I want to be as informed as possible in my decision whether to put something into my body, so I am certainly taking this into consideration.  My understanding was that Raloxifene is safe and tends to have minimal sides; your testimony bids the contrary.  What dosage were you using?  According to studies I've read, it should not raise your T so harshly...although I don't expect your experience to mirror the conclusions of the studies exactly, I'm surprised by your negative experience.  So was there any decrease in size whatsoever?  Or was it a complete waste of time/trouble?

I hope someone can learn from this and the moral of the story. Don't take PEDs and you won't get gyno. Don't self medicate.

That's excellent advice.  In my case, it was not caused by PED's as I've never taken anything to alter my hormones, but I know a couple of guys from the gym who developed it after a cycle and were successful using Aromatase Inhibitors (unfortunately these don't work on pubertal gyno or I would have tried that by now). In fact, It was advice from someof these guys that first pointed me toward researching non-surgical options for gyno after hearing their success stories (although they had only just developed gyno when they treated - this factor I attribute for the efficacy of the AI's).

I'll be getting the surgery done here within the next 9 months....A few of the surgeons on this site look very promising.

Best of luck with the Surgery!  Clue us in with what doc you use and your results.  If you are comfortable with doing so, you ought to post some pics.

I'm 6', 190 pounds with a 48 inch chest (naturally large, 37" arms) and currently 35 inch waist.  My hips are gone and I can't keep 36" pants up without a belt.  I sink now with 2/3 of a lung of air.  Before I couldn't sink.  My pecs, when not flexed, just look like part of the breasts.  What I have found is that taking the last 20 pounds off, from 210, has increased the flirting and hugs from the ladies at the nudist club a good 400%.

Great job with your health journey.  Sounds like you have really improved your life physically, mentally, and emotionally.  It's also very cool that you are so comfortable with your body.  Good for you!

People will believe what they want to believe and a person will find a way to prove what they want to prove.
The study cited by Keep it Moving is an example. Actually he did a good piece of research but the study itself is flawed.

I appreciate you taking your time to share your understanding of that study and for giving Keeping_it_Moving recognition for spending his valuable time to research the topic.  Many people would just troll the forum and say something like "You are just wasting your time, everyone knows surgery is the only option" without any educated information.  So thank you for your informative analysis.  Below, I am sharing a number of studies and conversation threads I have found useful on coming to an understanding of how Raloxifene works.  If any of you feel inclined to analyze some of this information like Paa_Paw did, I think it could help a lot of readers on this forum.

Just delete the spaces after // and before each dot to access these links since "Posting of links to other web sites is disabled" on this forum... 

Studies:
 http:// www .bmj .com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/treatment-gynaecomastia-raloxifene
http:// www .ncbi .nlm.nih .gov/pubmed/15238910 - this one was already shared by Keep_it_Moving
http:// gynecoma .com/wp-content/post-files/causes-of-gynecomastia.pdf
http:// www .sciencedirect .com/science/article/pii/0026049586902374
http:// pubmedcentralcanada .ca/pmcc/articles/PMC1126712/pdf/3270301.pdf

Conversation threads (these come from websites that advocate steroid use, so please proceed with skepticism):
http:// www .steroidology .com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/635870-raloxifene-ultimate-gyno-treatment.html
http:// www .swolesource .com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/650-raloxifene-gyno-high-dose-2.html

Thanks all!

[Keep_It_Moving]

If you'd like my personal advice on taking a SERM or AI to reduce gyno, I'd see an endocrinologist and see what they have to say about it.

[greatlakes]

I believe the proper control of testosterone and estradiol ratios can prevent new growth.

I personally believe that no drug can significantly or noticeably reverse tissue that has already formed in Adults (kids and teens are a different issue).

I can say this after getting my estradiol down to zero (wow that was a nightmare) - and now in low  normal range with a T to E ratio of around 28 and a Free T level high normal.

[Keep_It_Moving]

I believe the proper control of testosterone and estradiol ratios can prevent new growth.

I personally believe that no drug can significantly or noticeably reverse tissue that has already formed in Adults (kids and teens are a different issue).

I can say this after getting my estradiol down to zero (wow that was a nightmare) - and now in low  normal range with a T to E ratio of around 28 and a Free T level high normal.

Did you use medications to get your e to normal levels or did it come down naturally?

[Sven]

I believe the proper control of testosterone and estradiol ratios can prevent new growth.

I agree.

I personally believe that no drug can significantly or noticeably reverse tissue that has already formed in Adults (kids and teens are a different issue).

I almost agree. I am currently one month in on a cycle of raloxifene (which I plan to use for as long as six months)...which is about the only thing I consider a possibility.  If it doesn't work, I will be on board with you and be looking into getting surgery.

I can say this after getting my estradiol down to zero (wow that was a nightmare) - and now in low  normal range with a T to E ratio of around 28 and a Free T level high normal.

What did you use to alter each of these respective levels?

[greatlakes]

To reply to the last two posts I have improved my T and E ratios with Arimidex, a very very small amount at time of a weekly T injection. It not only reduces E2 but it increases Free T levels - a win win. But it is such a powerful drug that when I was first prescribed it - the daily dose suggested wiped out E2 completely and I felt terrible. Going too a weekly cycle of T injections from every two weeks also helped.

Many men who take T don't test or monitor their E2 levels... which they should, but controlling E2 in men is not well studied and its tricky to control.

P.S.In case anyone reading is wondering - Testosterone and Arimidex are medically prescribed by real doctors and are supervised. I don't abuse them, put my levels outside of acceptable ranges, or take illegally.

[Sven]

@greatlakes
Thanks for the response, that's helpful information.

[Keep_It_Moving]

To reply to the last two posts I have improved my T and E ratios with Arimidex, a very very small amount at time of a weekly T injection. It not only reduces E2 but it increases Free T levels - a win win. But it is such a powerful drug that when I was first prescribed it - the daily dose suggested wiped out E2 completely and I felt terrible. Going too a weekly cycle of T injections from every two weeks also helped.

Many men who take T don't test or monitor their E2 levels... which they should, but controlling E2 in men is not well studied and its tricky to control.

P.S.In case anyone reading is wondering - Testosterone and Arimidex are medically prescribed by real doctors and are supervised. I don't abuse them, put my levels outside of acceptable ranges, or take illegally.

I'm glad to hear that you're working with a doctor who is helping you balance, what appears to be, low t?

[greatlakes]

Keep it moving,

Thanks for the questions. I am a testicular cancer survivor, HCG would not work in my specific case. Decreasing the frequency of injection intervals to biweekly from weekly has been something I considered.  Going from every two weeks to once a week was very helpful. However, I like the simplicity of once a week its easy to remember. But I am keeping the option open for less than once a week. The amount of arimidex i take is just 0.25mg with the injection. I have to carefully cut up a 1mg pill as that is the smallest dose they prescribe.

By the way - FYI - I discovered I had Testicular cancer because as a 20 year old man - I began to develop gynecomastia. Young men who show symptoms should get a complete check of testicular functioning.
 

[Alchemist]

Keep it moving,

Thanks for the questions. I am a testicular cancer survivor, HCG would not work in my specific case. Decreasing the frequency of injection intervals to biweekly from weekly has been something I considered.  Going from every two weeks to once a week was very helpful. However, I like the simplicity of once a week its easy to remember. But I am keeping the option open for less than once a week. The amount of arimidex i take is just 0.25mg with the injection. I have to carefully cut up a 1mg pill as that is the smallest dose they prescribe.

By the way - FYI - I discovered I had Testicular cancer because as a 20 year old man - I began to develop gynecomastia. Young men who show symptoms should get a complete check of testicular functioning.
 

Hi Greatlakes,

"Many men who take T don't test or monitor their E2 levels... which they should, but controlling E2 in men is not well studied and its tricky to control."


I have been injecting testosterone for 10 years or so now after starting with Androgel.  From the reading I have done, serum peak from an IM T injection takes 3 days, holds pretty steady through day 8 and starts falling off after that.  I have found that weekly is as smooth as it is likely to get.  I have regular tests and it's rock steady.  It doesn't matter which day of the cycle I have it tested on.  I don't monitor or anything about the E2.  I grew breasts at 11 and aside from fat increases and decreases they have been unchanged since about age 15.  All I need is another tricky to control thing going on.  I have much more important things to worry about and feel no need at all.  The testosterone works for it's intended purposes

[greatlakes]

Alchemist - over 20 years for me.

My focus on controlling E2 was based on a return/increase in gynecomastia symptoms later in life. However after doing a lot of tests, seeing I had high e2 levels, and research I was surprised to read about the significant medical studies on the increases in death from stroke, heart disease, and more negatives... from men with high E2 or poor T to E ratios. Yikes. If your getting blood work anyway - tossing in an E2 level just to check - is nothing. Particularly on this site - where many are dealing with gynecomastia - you should know you E2 level and not just T levels. And of course the related "Free T" tests which show the functional T levels in your body that are not getting bound up.

However for those on T replacement, the easiest ways to minimize excess E2 are to control T dosing levels and intervals, and keep your weight down and including strength training, and a healthy diet. But for some thats not enough.

I have also had T levels tested at the middle and the end of my weekly T injection cycle  - pretty steady levels, with maybe only a 10% drop at the end of a week.

[Sven]

For anyone interested in seeing my progress with Raloxifene, I have kept a log on Google Drive.  I am sharing here for anyone to look at and share questions/comments:

https:/ /docs. google. com/document/d/1OliJfhi22E61uVwXsWqPjMQxAi2qV8ECPDVKwuQzNNQ/edit?usp=sharing

[headheldhigh01]

fyi, link does not work.  either doc is gone or address is for user logged in. 

[Sven]

fyi, link does not work.  either doc is gone or address is for user logged in. 

Thanks for pointing that out.  I had to insert three spaces into the URL to get it to post since this forum doesn't allow you to post links.  The spaces to remove are as follows:
1. after https:/
2. after docs.
3. after google.

Once you remove those, the link should work.

Thanks,

Sven

[Alchemist]

Alchemist - over 20 years for me.

My focus on controlling E2 was based on a return/increase in gynecomastia symptoms later in life. However after doing a lot of tests, seeing I had high e2 levels, and research I was surprised to read about the significant medical studies on the increases in death from stroke, heart disease, and more negatives... from men with high E2 or poor T to E ratios. Yikes. If your getting blood work anyway - tossing in an E2 level just to check - is nothing. Particularly on this site - where many are dealing with gynecomastia - you should know you E2 level and not just T levels. And of course the related "Free T" tests which show the functional T levels in your body that are not getting bound up.

However for those on T replacement, the easiest ways to minimize excess E2 are to control T dosing levels and intervals, and keep your weight down and including strength training, and a healthy diet. But for some thats not enough.

I have also had T levels tested at the middle and the end of my weekly T injection cycle  - pretty steady levels, with maybe only a 10% drop at the end of a week.

Hi Greatlakes,

My internist doses a bunch of tests, different ones, each 6 months, taking a cross section as it were.  With a history of congestive heart failure and so on we monitor all sorts of things.  The testosterone is partly titrated by effectiveness.  It is at the minimum level that maintains sexual functioning, mood, energy and keeps my muscles form atrophying, helps hold off edema and who knows what else. It's a very delicate balance. My whole system is at the edge of breakdown.  Without finding this balance more than a decade ago I'd be long dead.  The testosterone is part of the balance.

Good luck in finding a biological balance that works well for you.