my non surgical treatment....attempt

[Puff_daddy]

ok so i have been taking tamoxifen for almost 2 months now. i started with 20mg a day for the first month and noticed nothing. 2nd month went to 30mg a day and noticed a decrease in size/puffyness. i am about to get my 3rd and last refill i am allowed with my current prescription and keep taking 30mg a day. i also was doing some more in depth research into gyne treatments and came across some articles on the use of tumeric extract as an option. today i went and bought 300 capsules. 1 capsule=300mg curcuma longa root) standardized to 95% curcumin(285mg) i will be taking several of those each day until the bottle is gone. im hoping that the combination of tamoxifen and turmeric extract will increase my chances of success. recently more then ever, i have increased my cardiovascular training and managed to establish healthier eating habits.

i would also like to add that i have been sober for 3 months (very proud)  and do not smoke weed.

I was told by a specialist that when you stop drinking your  endocrine system can take several months to balance itself out from heavy alcohol consumption.  as we know, alcohol has a dramatic effect on your hormones.

I will keep this post up to date if anyone is interested in my results.

if you have any questions or comments feel free.....

[plato]

Cycle in a month of letrozole my man. Much more effective than tamoxifen, lowers estraidol by 98% or something. Take it for a month, followed by tamoxifen and tell us how it goes! I'm doin it now, starting with tamoxifin(40mg a day, I know, extreme) and I'll do letrozole next month.

[Puff_daddy]

plato,

what time of the day are you taking the tamoxifen 40mg?

my endo is kind of a Dikk so it will be hard for me to get another script i think. i will look into it

[Grandpa Bambu]

no questions or comments I want to see pictures  

Yep, take some pics dude...

John.

[Hypo-is-here]

Some brilliant ideas here

I mean let's mix in an aromatse inhibitor with a SERM medication and massively lower estradiol and the effects of estradiol and not have clue what is going on.  

A cracking human version of Chaos theory.

Maybe you can throw your thyroid function out, give yourself serious fatigue, lowered libido and erectile dysfunction.  Top stuff  

Or maybe only take what is prescribed by an accredited endocrinologist who is carefully monitering your health

On top of all this of course if someone hasn't had a competant endocrinologist investigate the course for the gynecomastia, you could always be attempting to medicate the wrong hormone and issue entirely.

An individual could have low testosterone, low DHT, high Prolactin, high SHBG, a thyroid or liver problem etc

So if endocrine haven't ascertained the cause as being high estradiol then not only can you make yourself ill, but you you can mask potentially serious underlying conditions............brilliant!

[Puff_daddy]

hypo as in hypochondriac? your reply stinks of late night internet research and a bad case of anxiety. well done.

[Gilbert]

I think eventually everyone here learns that if you have had your gyno for a while that surgery is the only cure.  

[Hypo-is-here]

hypo as in hypochondriac? your reply stinks of late night internet research and a bad case of anxiety. well done.

If you knew who I was I don't think you would be accusing me of a lack of research/knowledge or of being a hypochondriac.

Why don't you address my statements and explain how I am wrong exactly instead of making personal remarks.

[plato]

Taking them for 1-2 months shouldn't cause too much of a problem. And after a month, if I see no progress and stop, I don't think any hormonal damage would be long term. But tamoxifen and Letro shouldn't be taken together anyway.

[jones357]

If you knew who I was I don't think you would be accusing me of a lack of research/knowledge or of being a hypochondriac.

Why don't you address my statements and explain how I am wrong exactly instead of making personal remarks.

So, are you some kind of doctor

[Hypo-is-here]

Taking them for 1-2 months shouldn't cause too much of a problem. And after a month, if I see no progress and stop, I don't think any hormonal damage would be long term. But tamoxifen and Letro shouldn't be taken together anyway.

What hormone pathology tests and results do you have/have you had undertaken that makes you think what you are doing makes any sense?

Have you had any pathology or endocrine investigations at all?

[plato]

I've talked to an endocrinologist, but have not taken any tests. Are you a hormonal specialists? If not, you probably know less abut this than you think you do.

[Puff_daddy]

what do you have to say about this?

Im ditching the tamoxifen because it has not helped with my gyne. i understand how it can prevent further growth but not fix it.

I bodybuild. naturally, for the most part. i take some supplements here and there. I am going to start taking novedex xt as a testosterone booster because i here alot of good things about it. i have taken some form of test boosters in the past.

can you break down what my endocrine response to that change is going to be. if you know anything about the drugs? or could i stay on both?

[Hypo-is-here]

I have taken some form of test boosters in the past.

The principle metabolites of testosterone are DHT and estradiol, anything that boosts testosterone has the potential to increase estradiol via aromatase.  Depending on what you took they can cause or add to the problem.  

can you break down what my endocrine response to that change is going to be. if you know anything about the drugs? or could i stay on both?

SERM (selective estrogen receptor modulators) block the actions of estradiol at the estrogen receptors (ERs) by placing a weak estrogen in their place.  This means that the serum/blood level of estrogen remain/are no longer a relievable measurement of the biological/free level of estradiol or total estrogens within the body..  Because of the mechanism of action blood tests are rendered useless.  Added to that having already  started on this medication we have no idea what the blood levels of estradiol were prior to messing with the HPTA (hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis).  

In terms of your specific response, there is no way of knowing yourself and there is no way any endocrinologist could tell you your specific response (they would be measuring lipids, CBC, biochemistry, liver and kidney function etc if they were prescribing and they would only have prescribed having seen evidenced justification for its use).

Plato;

At present you are in the process of blocking the effects of estradiol if self medicating Tamoxifen, Nolvadex is the brand name for Tamoxifen. Irrespective of the form it is still a SERM medication which has the same problems/drawbacks when self medicating without having had prior pathology.

The problems generally and specifically are numerous;

How do you know that the cause of your gynecomastia was high estradiol and even if it was, how do you know if it is still high?

How do you know that is the problem given that gynecomastia can be caused by a whole host of differing factors?

How do you know that it is not caused by any of the following;

high prolactin?
Low testosterone?
Low dihydrotestosterone?
thyroid disorder?
liver disorder?
Kidney disease?
Temporary hormonal imbalance

Or any one of a number of rarer conditions?

All in all though 25% of all gynecomastia sufferers have underlying causative conditions.  Having not had any investigations/hormone pathology how do you know what boat you are in?

One thing for sure if high estradiol is not the cause of your gynecomastia then significant doses of SERMs or aromatase inhibitors are very likely to cause you problems, whether it be fatigue, lowered libido, erection problems, hot flushes etc.

Another thing that SERMs can do is cause problems with liver function, so let's hope you're not in the 8% of gynecomastia sufferers who has underlying liver disease as that would be very unfortunate.  

Unless you have hit the nail on the head what else will these meds do?

Well they can delay a proper endocrine investigation or worse still they can skew the results of one and allow the real cause of the gynecomastia to be missed.  

Bottom line here;

You don't know what you are doing.  You have no idea as to what has caused your gynecomastia (unless you explain otherwise).  You have no idea if there is an underlying cause or not.  Supposing for one second that there is an underlying condition, how do you know whether or not you are medicating the correct hormone.  If you do have an underlying cause what will happen if you stop self medicating?  

Even if you were medicating the right hormone, you have no idea as to dosage/cause and effect.

What about the potential for rebound effects?

You have no idea whether any real cause/culprit is being left alone to continue to cause the problem whilst you hammer the wrong hormone.
 
Can you see where I am coming from and the potential pitfalls?

[plato]

you probably know less abut this than you think you do.

Ill say it again, dont go there. I aint no brown noser but ill tell you straight Hypo knows more about endocrinology then most endos do. Most endos are trained in one thought, be it old school or recent ideas. Hypo knows them all. And with the help he's given me ill vouch for the fella.

Yes I know, but still. There is not all that much known about Gyne, and extensive ttests on every scenerio have not been performed. Because of this, I don't think anyone should speak definitively about it.