gyno and soy

[headheldhigh01]

i'm not going to disagree with your general point, but the fact is the green movement you alluded to (which should not be the subject of this thread) has alerted people to a number of things that corporations have fed us that we just weren't meant to eat, and the decisions taken at the time were based on scientific studies of hormone-connected irregularities, as discussed in the excerpt, which have really big and obvious connections to the etiology of gyne. 

[KE25]

i'm not going to disagree with your general point, but the fact is the green movement you alluded to (which should not be the subject of this thread) has alerted people to a number of things that corporations have fed us that we just weren't meant to eat, and the decisions taken at the time were based on scientific studies of hormone-connected irregularities, as discussed in the excerpt, which have really big and obvious connections to the etiology of gyne. 

You are correct, sir. I met many very reasonable members of the green movement or green parties over in Europe. They have created a lot of awareness regarding these issues. However, by using these questions and concerns as a political tool a lot irrationality has bee created as well.

Either way, it is always a good idea to watch what and how much we eat and drink. And like in so many important fields related to such concerns (including psychology, climate change, medicine in general etc) a lot more research needs to be conducted. All I wanted to say is: be careful with general statements such as "soy is good for you" or "soy is bad for you". You may be asked to back up statements like that with hard research data. And we all know how difficult that is.

But I certainly would hope that a lot more research regarding the causes of gyne and everything it may relate to would be conducted. It's one of the last remaining areas where shame, ignorance, denial and some quirky prudishness prevails. Really weird given the fact that vast numbers of men are afflicted with this curse.

[BadCaseGyno]

To be safe, I would steer clear of any soy. Drinking one glass of soymilk is equivalent to popping 6 birth control pills at once. Flooding your body with massive amounts of estrogen will only increase the size of your moobs.

[headheldhigh01]

Drinking one glass of soymilk is equivalent to popping 6 birth control pills at once.

complete bunk.  don't take it personally, but it's best to read the full thread preceding before accidentally falling for, and ignorantly re-posting, urban legends like this into the discussion.  the post that came two after mine on the previous page included this link,

http://www.t-nation.com/article/diet_and_nutrition/soy_whats_the_big_deal&cr=

which includes this observation:  

Before we go on, let's do something very important — something many authors fail to do. Let's put these rat studies into a real life perspective.

We'll start by looking at an adult male who weighs 190 pounds (86 kg). If he were to consume 20 mg/kg of PE's like the initial rat study indicated, that'd be 86 kg x 20 mg, leading to a total of 1,720 mg of PE's per day.

Do you have any idea how much soy that'd be?!

If not, have a look at the following table. It gives you an idea of the amount of PE's found in soy foods.

Food     Serving      Total Isoflavones (mg)

Soy protein concentrate, water wash
3.5 oz
102

Soy protein concentrate, alcohol wash
3.5 oz
12

Miso
1/2 cup
59

Soybeans, cooked
1/2 cup
47

Tempeh
3 ounces
37

Soybeans, dry roasted
1 ounce
37

Soy milk
1 cup
30

Tofu based yogurt
1/2 cup
21

Tofu
3 ounces
20

Soybeans, green, cooked (edamame)
1/2 cup
12

Soy hot dog
1 hot dog
11

Soy sausage
3 links
3

Soy cheese, mozzarella
1 oz
2

As you can see from the table, our hypothetical male is very, very unlikely to consume 1,720 mg of PE's from food.

Check out the following menu:

1 cup of cooked soybeans = 94 mg
6 ounces of tempeh = 74 mg
2 cups of soy milk = 60 mg
6 ounces of tofu = 40 mg
2 soy hot dogs = 22 mg
4 oz of soy cheese = 8 mg

Total = 298 mg

Soy overload, for sure, right?

Yet, it only supplies 289 mg of PE's. That's one-fifth of what might be required to lower Testosterone levels.

So, let's get real here. It's unlikely that Testosterone problems would occur if someone were to eat a moderate amount of whole-food soy products.

A more traditional daily intake of soy for someone may look more like this:

8 ounces of tofu = 53 mg
1/2 cup soy milk = 15 mg
1/2 cup edamame = 12 mg

Total = 80 mg of PE's

Taking it to human studies, data on patients with prostate cancer showed that the intake of 80 mg/day of PE's didn't significantly alter Testosterone levels.

To go one step further, an intake of PE's up to 16 mg/kg of body weight had no significant influence on behavior or physical characteristics.

Taking the dose up again, another study found that 84 straight days of consuming 450 to 900 mg/day of PE's lowered DHEA levels and had estrogenic side effects in males with prostate cancer. Not necessarily good. However, skim over the chart above to determine how much soy food that'd be. It's a freakin' lot!

i'm a vegan and even i don't consume close to 300 mg in a day - let alone 1,720!    

a mistake like the one you cite naively relies on the idea that a phytoestrogen is equivalent to regular human estrogen, which i already mentioned, it is not, it is a fraction of it, about 1/500th of it i believe, and there are suggestions it could even interfere with the effect of the regular stuff.  

more proof that the meat and dairy industry's lies are easily swallowed and passed on by the uninformed  can we try putting this pseudoscientific myth to bed again once and for all please?  thanks.  

[KE25]

To be safe, I would steer clear of any soy. Drinking one glass of soymilk is equivalent to popping 6 birth control pills at once. Flooding your body with massive amounts of estrogen will only increase the size of your moobs.

Hm. Where is your evidence for that? Does not sound logical for a number of resaons. I mean I never understood this notion of "drink soy and not real milk" and how things are "good for you" vs "bad for you". I simply don't like the taste of it. If I want milk I drink milk. Everything in moderation should be ok as long as it doesn't glow in the dark.

My gyne started during puberty. So hormones play a role. I don't think soy products were around back then neither were plastic bottles. And all the good things and bad things that I ate and drink since have not changed my breasts a single bit other than maybe fewer or more fat deposits during different phases of my life.

If certain food could change breast appearance than women would have figured that out centuries ago. Hormones however have an obvious impact, e.g. during and after pregnancy - within the genetically predetermined limits.

That's at least my theory so far.

[BadCaseGyno]

I really don't know if soy causes gyno or not. What I do know, however, is that unfermented soy is some dangerous stuff. Scientists have linked soy to an array of health problems including sexual dysfunction, brain damage, cancer, damage to the immune system and in women breast cancer (due to the extreme excess of estrogen soy causes). Soy also damages the hormone levels in both boys and men, femenizing them. The formula industry has done a good job of spreading false information regarding the safety of soy, and unfortunately too many people are gullible and believe the misinformation of the corporations.

Again I say, soy is a dangerous substance. Don't think that just because something is "natural", its automatically healthy. Marijuana is "natural" as well, but that doesn't make is safe or healthy. Steer clear of non-fermented soy.

http://www.youtube.com/v/RjZs0DGW1Jk&hl=en&fs=1&"

[mizuno]

I'm asian and soy is a stable in most asian diets and if you look at the japanese & korean (which I'am) they generally live longer and healther lives.
That is not based entirely on soy but their must be something to it.
But, I did read an interesting article in men's health I think it was the May or June addition and it was a story regarding
a man in his thirty's that suddenly developed breasts and after all the testing by his doctor it was determined that it
was from soy.

[headheldhigh01]

sounds like a doctor who has no business getting quoted in articles.  it's getting really tough to get people to read the ACTUAL DATA regarding isoflavones instead of the ridiculous hype the dairy industry's been funding. 

this is not directed at anyone, but it would be really helpful if people would read the detail of the actual preceding thread before just posting in at random with the latest rumor or spurious hearsay. 

[BadCaseGyno]

I'm asian and soy is a stable in most asian diets and if you look at the japanese & korean (which I'am) they generally live longer and healther lives.
That is not based entirely on soy but their must be something to it.
But, I did read an interesting article in men's health I think it was the May or June addition and it was a story regarding
a man in his thirty's that suddenly developed breasts and after all the testing by his doctor it was determined that it
was from soy.

They eat fermented soy. The unfermented soy is the dangerous stuff.

[Paa_Paw]

I think that in the case cited the cause could not be determined so something had to be assigned the blame and they settled on Soy.

Why is it that we need to find something to blame for everything?

The simple truth is that the most common cause of Gynecomastia is "I don't know."

[headheldhigh01]

They eat fermented soy. The unfermented soy is the dangerous stuff.

 

please read the article i excerpted above or anything preceding.  you would have to eat KILOS of this stuff, unfermented or not, to come close to justifying a hyped word like "dangerous."   apples are as dangerous or more because they contain cyanide.  WOOOOOO, CYANIDE, DEADLY FATAL POISON.  sure, if you eat more of them than you could stuff into yourself at a single sitting. 

read the studies.  the beef and dairy hormones are the real risk.  case closed. 

[mizuno]

I'm asian and soy is a stable in most asian diets and if you look at the japanese & korean (which I'am) they generally live longer and healther lives.
That is not based entirely on soy but their must be something to it.
But, I did read an interesting article in men's health I think it was the May or June addition and it was a story regarding
a man in his thirty's that suddenly developed breasts and after all the testing by his doctor it was determined that it
was from soy.

They eat fermented soy. The unfermented soy is the dangerous stuff.

Can anyone verify if that is the case ? " The unfermented soy is the dangerous stuff."

[headheldhigh01]

please, people, for crying out loud, READ THE FREAKING THREAD FIRST BEFORE POSTING.  

NEITHER. KIND. IS. DANGEROUS.
READ THE ARTICLES. 
IT IS HARMLESS.  

[Jopet]

because of what i read in this forum, im now having a hesitation eating tofu.
i dont know why. There's no reason for me to believe but hey, my body is convinced from everything i'd read here.

Im trying to save up more money right now to prepare for a possible surgery.

[headheldhigh01]

if you actually READ what was posted in this forum - like the actual articles above - you would know why you would have to eat barrels of the stuff to have a (theoretical) problem, or you would understand why phytoestrogens can actually work AGAINST regular estro and therefore would be more likely to help PREVENT gyne instead.  but if you want to eat the hormone-infested meat and dairy that i was eating heavily when i got mine, go ahead, it'll be your corrective op.   

people have stopped reading the thread content here before posting.  can i please request one of the moderators to lock this one now?