AAS Bodybuilders with Lumps Under Nipple/s and treatment / experience.

[lee_fitness]

Hows it going Guys Quick run down of Stats bf max of 10-12% lean build, 5ft 10 170lb

I have had and treated nipple lumps/swollen/ raised glands before and has seemed to subside and go with use of an Ai / Serm.

This time round on 4th week on Cycle Test + Deca and adex at .50 - .75mg pd i managed to yet again get a very painful lump under my right nipple 3 days or so after realizing it was the start of uni lateral Gyno i immediately treated with adex 1mg, Tamox 40/40/20/20mg etc pd for the first week until i got Letrozole from my Doctor.

The first day of adex @1mg decreased the pain dramatically and nolva seemed to soften the tissue. Just before i started the Letro (tapering up to 2.5mg over 4 days) the lump seemed to be enlarged and hard and as i started Letro Treatment the puffiness and lump seemed to fluctuate from morning to night. worse case yet.

I am now halfway into the 2nd week of Letro Treatment and the pain is pin prick to touch (so still active and hopefully able to be eliminated through medication) the Lump / gland is still hard and pressent but size is much smaller and at times flatter.

This time round it is x2 lumps/glands next to each other. 
I have also realized that i have on my right Pec area above my Nipple tissue much like what i think is small buildups of breast tissue,flat and non visable to the naked eye, the left side is fine / soft and normal.

I don't think it is visable but because i know that something is there i am more conscious of it and more  likely to see what others don't.

Basically I'm looking for BB alike to share there experiences to try and help myself and others alike help come to terms and help treat / eliminate with this 'most common' annoying' stressful side effect from AAS and help decide wether or not and at what stage was/is surgery an option.

From now on my AAS cycle doses will be minimal and least aromatisng.

How did you guys with experience deal with this and did Ai / Serm Treatment work for you.

Surgery in this case i imagine would be a tad overkill. And wouldn't be needed until visable. But all the same very annoying. This is the only thing in life i regret doing to my self. My own Dam fault for making silly mistakes through lack of knowledge.

Any Input, reassurance / Experience would greatly be appreciated and hopefully help others as well.

I understand / realize that there are people on here who have a much larger degree of Gyno through Genetic / Hormonal disorders and this post may annoy some people but I'm seeking advise, help + reassurance for myself and others alike. It just happens to be caused through a medication which athletes / Bodybuilders use as performance enhancing drugs. So i hope that this Thread wont offend any Naturally Legitimate Gyno Cases which have been caused through Adolescent Hormonal imbalances etc.
Thanks,
Lee

[Clandestine]

Sorry to hear youre having problems.

Just to clarify, I have gyno. I haven't taken any form of AAS in my life, be it traditional AAS used by bodybuilders or prohormone/designer steroids available OTC. I have considered it in the past though, and have read up extensively. I can't offer any real life experience, just the advice of someone who's taken a large ammount of time educating himself on AAS use, and deciding it wasn't for him.

For anyone susceptable to gyno, the most commonly used mass building AAS can be your own worst enemy.

Take a typical cycle of say 500mg test weeks 1-12, DBol 30mg weeks 1-4, Decca Durabolin 300-600mg weeks 1-12:

Youre kick starting the cycle with dianabol, which can readily aromatise. As it's a methylated hormone, it'll aromatise to a Methyl-Oestradiol, bad news for gyno, very bad news...

Test obviously will aromatise to all the forms of Oestrogen that natural test does in the body. It's the Decca that can REALLY cause problems tho. Nandralone is a progestin, capable of stimulating progesterone receptors 20% as eficiently as progesterone. This is the main reason for it's ability to shut you down hard and fast. It can also combined with an elevated oestrogen level , cause progesterone related gyno.

If you're experiencing gyno due to progestenic activity, all the Nolvadex and Letro in the world will not stop its progression. There are a few anti-progestenic's available such as Bromocriptine, which could help during a cycle including Decca, however I'm not sure about its effectiveness to treat gyno after it's occured.

Are you still on cycle at the moment? If you are I'd strongly suggest you at least stop the Decca mate!! I know it's an extremely long lasting ester, but still a wise decision. Sounds like you have no way to combat progestenic sides. Don't run Decca without Bromo, it's asking for trouble when combined with test.

When you come into PCT (21-28 days after last injection) continue to use letro, and tasper off it slowly.. very slowly. You could otherwise experience some wicked oestrogen rebound, causing your gyno to flare up again.

AS for eliminating side effects.. you can't really, just minimise them. Use steroids that don't aromatise, such as EQ, Tren, Winstrol etc. A small dose of testosterone with NON progestenic steroids should do no harm ie 200mg of testosterone per week. If you do experience chest symptoms from the test, don't taper up an AI, start it at a high dose, then taper DOWN when the side effect stops.

AI/SERM usage as soon as glandular tissue starts to develop can be effective from the many many testemonials I've read. The older the tissue however, the less of an effect Nolvadex will have.

[lee_fitness]

Thank you very much for such a detailed reply.

I beelive it is Test/estrogen related as is occurred week 3-4 when i upped the test sust to 750mg p/w. The Deca dose was a low 100mg/100mg/200mg/200mg so i have strong reasoning is is due to test/estrogen conversion. I was on .75mg Adex with the 750mg test and Couldn't believe it came through so soon with the Adex. It the first time i have used Adex and every read up, research study and other peoples opinion all aimed at adex being no higher than 1mg p/d and too much can over kill estrogen. Not enough in my case!

I have only recently come across bromo/ caber for prevention of predestines my doc didn't mention about the need for poss progestin protection. But i would imagine that my Deca Dose would be minimal so no great risk for the use of Bromo/caber. If i would have known at the time evey cycle would have included Progestin Protection. Infact Deca willnever be used in my cycles again fro now on. Gonna stick to Eq or Primo.

As for The not needin gto Taper up Letro i am very pi**ed at that because i should have followed my instinct and not other peoples Letro protocols alone. I figured what was the point in tap[ering up Letro or any Ai or Serm for that matter when you need to treat ASAP.

I feel it is going down and flattening and once its gone i understand that there will most likely be a tiny trace still engraved there, but hopefully a very very minimal no existent cant feel trace. lol

Every where i looked Letro protocol was taper UP as well as Down. Down for obvious rebound effect. I have Aromasin, clomid, Tamox and adex to hand also and after my Letro Treatment i want to switch to my Aromasin without Tamox. As the Aromasin will destroy rather than lower.

The reason i dot want to use and avoid Tamox if i can is because I have read in more than one study where Tamox can actually make gyno reocccure in its own right.

Have you any Feed back on me using Aromasin @25mg on the last day of letro and 2-3 weeks after to stop any rebound?

Thanks again
Lee

Edited: Ps next cycle will be minimal test enanth 250mg 500mg max. prob go 250mg this time, Eq or primo around 300mgp/w and Dianabol @15mg pd would be a nice addition with estrogen protection. Low Dianabol shouldnt araomatise with an Ai in place, start cycles small again and try for best quality gains.

I also stopped my Cycle Completley and whent in to Ai + Serm protection immidiatkey and now continuing with Letro for as long as i feel is needed.

[Clandestine]

Glad to hear you stopped your cycle. Wise choice.

Remember that both substances you were taking have long acting esters, so a delay is needed before starting a propper pct.

Decca has the longest half life, so you need to start taking your SERM at PCT dosages 21 days after the last injection. Any sooner is pointless as the substance will still be shutting you down. I know your cycle didn't lst that long, but a single 100mg dose of Nandralone has been shown as capable of totally stopping natural test production for a week, and causing residual effects for another 3-4. Do a 3 week PCT minimum.

To combat the oestrogen rebound, you'd be better off tapering the letro over the course of a month. For example: 1mg ED week 1, 0.5 mg ED week 2, 0.25mg ED week 3, 0.25mg EoD week 4. Having your letro course end before PCT stops would be Ideal, reason being any rebound would hopefully happen while on the SERM, and stop before finishing it.

Keep some Nolvadex with you tho, rebound may still happen after PCT. Nolva in itself should not cause gyno to worsen, just the opposite.

[lee_fitness]

Glad to hear you stopped your cycle. Wise choice.

Remember that both substances you were taking have long acting esters, so a delay is needed before starting a propper pct.

Decca has the longest half life, so you need to start taking your SERM at PCT dosages 21 days after the last injection. Any sooner is pointless as the substance will still be shutting you down. I know your cycle didn't lst that long, but a single 100mg dose of Nandralone has been shown as capable of totally stopping natural test production for a week, and causing residual effects for another 3-4. Do a 3 week PCT minimum.

To combat the oestrogen rebound, you'd be better off tapering the letro over the course of a month. For example: 1mg ED week 1, 0.5 mg ED week 2, 0.25mg ED week 3, 0.25mg EoD week 4. Having your letro course end before PCT stops would be Ideal, reason being any rebound would hopefully happen while on the SERM, and stop before finishing it.

Keep some Nolvadex with you tho, rebound may still happen after PCT. Nolva in itself should not cause gyno to worsen, just the opposite.

I think Tapering Down Letro over the weeks would be a very good protocol.
Thanks Heaps for the Additional Info. Very Useful.

I didn't think Pct would be a good idea whilst on Letro as Letro Will stimulate Natural Test Levels and some have even used Letro as a PCT protocol and found it to be effective. I though Aroma and / Nolva after Letro instead of alongside due to Letro's Higher Toxicity Levels and wouldn't want to use another AI or Serm with Letro as an AI would be ineffective alongside letro and a Serm would only take away from its Effectiveness with higher Toxicity Levels. If there's No estrogen for the Serm To attach to then any Serm that does Attach will only take from the effectiveness and Visa Versa?

I have hCG on hand also but feel no need for that the Boys are Fine and i wouldnt want to add any unnecisarry reason for my estrogen to fluctuate as we know hCG can be the worst thing for Gyno if missused.

[Clandestine]

Letro, and any other AI will to some extent stimulate testosterone production, but no where near as well as a SERM. The AI will simply prevent the formation of oestrogen from any small amount of testosterone in your system. SERMs act on the pertuitory gland to increase its FSH and LH output which directly signals your testicles to start producing again.

Taking Letro whilst on a SERM is fine. A SERM doesn't bind to oestrogen, it binds to oestrogen receptors located phisically on/inside tissue. Both Nolvadex and Clomid are themselves oestrogens. They have less of an oestrogenic effect, but beat oestradiol to the punch when binding to your receptors. When bound, they sit there taking up the receptor, not allowing oestradiol to bind and exert an effect.

It has been shown in some studies that taking Nolvadex can decrease the effectiveness of Letro by up to 40%, so 1mg letro becomes as effective as 0.6mg of Letro, but only Letro's effected, Nolva continues to function as intended. If youre tapering letro any way, this will allow a more gradual taper, if this is indeed the effect.

Letro is indeed bad for your lipid profile (liver function), however Nolvadex is extremely good at making lipid profiles look amazingly healthy. Toxicity of these compounds in combination is almost certainly less than a normal dose of DBol for 4-5 weeks.

If you have no testicular atrophy, then yes, save the hCG.

Libido is also never a good guage of how shut down you are. Sure zero testosterone in your system would be noticable but for many men even a low test level will not result in a decline in libido and/or ED. I say this because letro is a libido killer. Eliminating oestrogen can really kill sexual desire, so no need to panic and use the hCG if you experience "performance issues".

[lee_fitness]

Letro, and any other AI will to some extent stimulate testosterone production, but no where near as well as a SERM. The AI will simply prevent the formation of estrogen from any small amount of testosterone in your system. SERMs act on the pertuitory gland to increase its FSH and LH output which directly signals your testicles to start producing again.

Taking Letro whilst on a SERM is fine. A SERM doesn't bind to oestrogen, it binds to oestrogen receptors located phisically on/inside tissue. Both Nolvadex and Clomid are themselves oestrogens. They have less of an oestrogenic effect, but beat oestradiol to the punch when binding to your receptors. When bound, they sit there taking up the receptor, not allowing oestradiol to bind and exert an effect.

It has been shown in some studies that taking Nolvadex can decrease the effectiveness of Letro by up to 40%, so 1mg letro becomes as effective as 0.6mg of Letro, but only Letro's effected, Nolva continues to function as intended. If youre tapering letro any way, this will allow a more gradual taper, if this is indeed the effect.

Letro is indeed bad for your lipid profile (liver function), however Nolvadex is extremely good at making lipid profiles look amazingly healthy. Toxicity of these compounds in combination is almost certainly less than a normal dose of DBol for 4-5 weeks.

If you have no testicular atrophy, then yes, save the hCG.

Libido is also never a good guage of how shut down you are. Sure zero testosterone in your system would be noticable but for many men even a low test level will not result in a decline in libido and/or ED. I say this because letro is a libido killer. Eliminating oestrogen can really kill sexual desire, so no need to panic and use the hCG if you experience "performance issues".

Thanks again for the Great Input of Information, Its helped me to understand a lot clearer. It is very much appreciated.
Very interesting on the Nolva decreasing the effectiveness of Letro by up to 40%. I wonder how Clomid would effect this. My guess from my knowledge on Serms is that it would take More Clomid approx 150mg  clomid to take the same effect on Letro as, if i remember correctly of the top of my head, 20mg of Nolva has been found to stimulate test production at the same rate of 150mg Of Clomid. So this in its self would be a great choice over Clomid for Pct i.e. Less toxicity and Side effects. But I feel Clomid from previous experience and Knowledge stimulates test and LH More Effectively. The only sides i have had from Clomid (Clomifine Citrate) was strange dreams and Testicular Hypertrophy i.e.Big Ball Sacks or Kangaroo Nuts,lol  (Bigger than normal through the entire duration of my Off Cycle, Last off Cycle was 1 yr) this Previous Course of ASS has arophy'ed them back.

At this stage i wouldn't want such a dramatic Decrease Of Letro / oestrogen Protection as i feel since  Natural Test, LH + FSH can be stimulated at a little later date (a few weeks later as Estrogen Protection is still in place) as it was only a 4 weeks period on cycle and it should be much more easier to stimulate For PCT after Letro. As Letro is also very good for using as setrogen protectant in Bringing   in between Cycles. If Gynecomastia is a real issue/possible issue (Which is the situation) then id rather opt over Low Sexual Function than have an extra Sexual Repodutive Organ.
But even So you Information and Input is highly valued and i will be Looking into More research with using Clomid as a possible stimulant for PCT during Letro.

It is now approx 2 and a half weeks since last Deca, sust Injection and 10 Days on Letrozole and I woke up today and did my regular Nipple palpitation to check on progress of the lumps/s and it has seemed to soften and decrease to a flatter state, more movable and soft without such a distingwished ball point. I hope for a more progressive recovery and to rid any noticeable glandular tissue. Zero is my goal. I understand that a slight presence of gland may be a high possibility.(would make sense gland/breast tissue has been stimulated to grow)

I have been using I3C (Indole 3 carbinol) through the duration of my off cycle and i defiantly have found very positive results with the Nipple area at doses of 300mg + and lower as maintenance(150mg). I Chose this over Dindolylmethine (DIM) as "DIM" i couldn't get a hold of. This time round i will be inquiring and researching on a stronger herbal compound through my Doctor(GP / Distinguished in Natural Therapies/Remedies). He mentioned a product to me which is meant to work better at Combating Estriadol conversion, but i didn't write down the name of it. This i will be looking in to the next week and a half to use after my Prescribed Drugs to help my body stabilize until i feel my body (Nipple area) has settled completely from any gland being stimulated or being present through Palpations.

I have had the nipple gland increase slightly off cycle of AAS and i found that an additioanl 300mg dose of I3C before Bed softend/deplenished and even eliminated any sudden/present gland buildup. Meaning:(slight raise of gland, (small point of lump) a continuation of I3C thoughout/over several months seemed to cure the gland from ariseing/being present to touch. It worked very well during the several month period and throgh a sevealr month duration upuntill the start of my Present AAS course i feel had a very pleasing and satisfying recovery. Thats why this time round (due to my mistake of higher external Androgenic input) i immediately stopped the AAS immediately ad treated to cure. Hopefully no extra glandular / breast tissue was produced and stopped / eliminated in time through AI / Serm treatment.

I highly rate and recommend natural extracts such as I3C i.e Broccoli etc, grapeseed extract (in high doses gave me excellent energy levels also) , DIM. I have personally found Noticeable results in "SLIGHT" lump/ Gland reduction through using these Extracts.

The only down side is with I3C is that it needs stomach acid to convert into the Active DIM, so DIM would be a more stable compound to use. A pound and one half of broccoli = 300mg I3C = 30-40mg DIM! It helps promote a healthy ratio of Estriol (Good) to Estriadol (Bad) Estrogen - In Short -
DIM has been shown to be effective at doses 20-60mg and as high as 120mg.
I have used I3C as high as 600 - 900mg p/d, (as needed) and found to be effective in treating estrogen build up/conversion. I found effective maintenance at 150mg - 300/400mg up until gland activity subsided. Pls note that this is after the Use/treatment of Prescribed Aromatise Inhibitor/s and / Serms (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) and purely used as a defense and Prevention / Cure for Slight Gland enlargement whilst body is in a natural state with No AAS present.     These Extracts have also been found to be very helpfull alongside AI/ SERM to help ease with the Recovery of PCT.

So for those reading this post the use of such extracts is defiantly something worth looking in to!

[lee_fitness]

Hi Guys update on Progres.

The Letro is working very well for me. Im 2 and a half weeks into 2.5mg/d and the fat deposits/breast tissue around the nipple chest area have got down drastically which is a really great result. Hrdley even there if at all now.

The Lump/gland/swelling/start of breast tissue under the nipple has gone down to where its only a slight gland pressence probably a 10th infact 20th the size would be more like it, to what it was previously.
Side effects from Letrozole Femera drug:

• minimal dryness of skin
  
minimal joint dryness, no pain

• up to the 2nd week slight decrease in Alpha male feeling but not a bad low level
  
Libido, , well, its there but takes a little more persuasion and is fine
Other than that as i wont be having further bloods taken untill he next approx 6 weeks so all seems fine, im keeping hydrated and good food intake(reasonable) to help flush the toxins.

Would advise this as aprotocal for similar people in the same sitaution as myself.

Note:
Prescription was given for the Drug so it was a legitimate source.

[captklenk]

I can only add my agreement that if you want to avoid gyno, then do not take highly androgenic steroids such as Test, Halotestin, Anadrol etc....stick with drugs like Deca if you insist on doing juice.

[womanboob]

Great post I didn't know everyone was so knowledgable about steroids ... I've thought of taking some tren many times because it doesn't convert to estrogen and it's powerful etc... but I keep telling myself that the last thing i need is a homemade steroid floating around in my body.

Congrats on ending the cycle

[Clandestine]

If you truely want to avoid gynecomastia, don't do steroids at all, any steroids.

Deca is a progestin, and can induce gyne via stimulation of the progesterone receptors. Many claim that oestrogen needs to be present for this to happen, but I highly doubt that personally.

If you do run Deca on its own, make sure youre single as there's no way on earth youre gonna be able to get an erection, or even want to get one  .

Womanboob. Somone offered you some Trenbolone?  That stuff's lethal mate! It's also a progestin, so it can give you gyne/make it worse. It's also very androgenic, so unless your scalp is bullet proof, you will loose hair, gain body hair, probably sweat like a bull (they use Tren on cattle) and gennerally feel like shit. Tren also like Deca, will shut your natural test down harder than anything else. From eggs to raisins in less than a week.

As powerful as any AAS may be, they don't do Jack Sh1t unless you're eating and training right. That means 5-6 meals a day, a solid weight training routine, and a decent muscle base to build on. If you don't have 5 + years experience training then youre not ready for AAS. Even then, you can still make gains naturally, and should do so.

[dcvet]

I can only add my agreement that if you want to avoid gyno, then do not take highly androgenic steroids such as Test, Halotestin, Anadrol etc....stick with drugs like Deca if you insist on doing juice.

Crappy advice on Deca only cyle dude...

Other than this post, the thread looks pretty decent.  Im so proud to see meaningful gear talk on here *tear*...

[booty_frijoles]

wait, so stuff like test could make the gyne worse?

i thought it was mostly because of the estrogen that the gyne is there in the first place.
I'm not as educated about this stuff as you guys sound but I am kinda familiar with Test and its supposed to be an estrogen blocker too...

im confused 

[Clandestine]

Huge ammounts of Test don't cause gyne directly.

Some tissues in the body contain an enzyme called aromatase. It's aromatase's job to manufacture the oestrogen that a male body needs to function. Oestrogens play a part in the lubrication of joints, bone cell production (too little oestrogen can cause adverse effects on bone density) and lipids (LDL/HDL cholesterol) amongst other things.

Testosterone in no way inhibits oestrogen directly. Its presence in the correct quantity certainly has a hand in forming a homeostasis of hormones in the body.

There is another enzyme that converts testosterone into a much more androgenic hormone. 5-alpha-reductase transforms test into DHT (Dihidrotestosterone). DHT has anti oestrogen effects. In large ammounts it can alsoo lead to hair loss, prostate enlargement, increased body hair..... basically it's pure "man juice" in that it, along with testosterone is what makes men male.

Externally administering Test envolves taking doses of the hormone far above those naturally produced in the body. Typical HRT doses of testosterone are around 100-150mg per week, and can be as low as 50mg per week (depends on the individual). In terms of building muscle, the usual minimum dosage is 500mg as often as every 5 days. At this level, much more test is available to be aromatised, and 5-alpha-reduced, leading to side effects such as gyne, hair loss, and the feeling of sitting on a golf-ball (prostate problems).

If you have low testosterone, administering it externally can help restore the natural balance, where all hormones are in synergy with eachother as they should be. If you administer more than is needed, ie dosages required to build muscle mass, the ratio of hormones becomes scewed, and they can no longer keep eachother in check.

[booty_frijoles]

Oh ok...well i was actually talking about a supplement called TEST by Myogenix. I took a cycle of this because I had a feeling my estrgen levels were a little high and was making my gyne worse so i thought it might help but it didn't really do anything. It did kinda help me put on some muscle mass when I worked out but it didnt really have too much of an effect, period. Kind of increased energy levels tho i guess. haha it said "Strong sexual stimulant" but i gotta get rid of the gyne first for the sex! lol