Author Topic: acceptance vs Christianity  (Read 4202 times)

Offline TikTak

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Humans, by their very nature, relate badly to any 'otherness'. There are innumerable examples - obesity, a hunchback, strong glasses, crooked legs, etc. - that immediately become a reason for mockery, rejection or unpleasant jokes.
Some people do not need any justification for their meanness, while others do - and claim that they condemn this "otherness" because God tells them to or because it is required by "moral norms", without which society would collapse.
I am a Catholic, and I regret to say that many people in church circles mistreat people with gender identity disorders, and people with gynecomastia may be taken as such by the uninformed.
In fact, however, this is just a manifestation of the weakness of church people and has nothing to do with the gospel.


GrahamB

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Humans, by their very nature, relate badly to any 'otherness'. There are innumerable examples - obesity, a hunchback, strong glasses, crooked legs, etc. - that immediately become a reason for mockery, rejection or unpleasant jokes.
Some people do not need any justification for their meanness, while others do - and claim that they condemn this "otherness" because God tells them to or because it is required by "moral norms", without which society would collapse.
I am a Catholic, and I regret to say that many people in church circles mistreat people with gender identity disorders, and people with gynecomastia may be taken as such by the uninformed.
In fact, however, this is just a manifestation of the weakness of church people and has nothing to do with the gospel.
.................................
The replies to this thread are wonderful,  insightful, opinionated and informative. Thanks everyone. The explanation about clothing worn by the Israelite people during the wandering years, the years when the Pentateuch laws were being written is probably as close to accurate as we can hope to have. The difference between men's and women's clothing was most likely similar. 
A very popular evangelical preacher took the time to explain the importance of the scripture about a man dressing in women's clothing. He enlightened the audience to the fact that the clothing of the period was similar. That the scripture is intended to teach that the individual committing the act of dressing alternatively is doing such as a mode of deception to avoid responsibility. God sees that deception and will condemn the individual. 
I believe that if bras were sold in both men's and women's clothing departments, and always had been, we, today, wouldn't be having these discussions. 
I have been a bicycle commuter all my life. When my moobs started hanging down in a most unattractive way I purchased a sport bra. When temperatures rose I would remove the shirt and wear the bra only, like so many females do. I got odd stares and occasional chuckles. But I didn't care. Those people were just showing their ignorance. I could just imagine the response if I did not wear a bra for modesty reasons let alone support reasons. 

Orb

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Wearing an article of clothing for the purpose of physical support and comfort to assist a growth pattern we did not ask for is hardly going against christianity or the spirit of the bible. The problem with negative reactions from "conservative christians" is the label they likely immediately fix to it such as assuming deviant sexual behavior etc. They generally assume too much.

I am a "born again christian". I am disgusted with the path of so called conservative christians and their political alignments. They are the ones deviating from the bible and destroying their chance of positive witness to the world with obvious hypocrisy. The devil is being victorious as the bible warns.
Good for you blad.  I believe your right here. 
Having just read a few more I have a few more thoughts.I will have to add those later as I'm out of town again and have limited time now.  Many made good points.

I to have a strong faith and wish to share my thoughts. 

A Cliff note version for now.

Many state the old Law and men not wearing clothing of woman.  Old law stated everyone had to help and support the widows... To dress as  woman would allow one to sit accepting a hand out as in begging, to deceive others to give to them so they didn't  work. 

New Testament teachings,  accepting Jesus, replaces the old law and its order.  Remember the Temple curtain was torn?

Wearing a ski mask isn't a problem.  Wearing a ski mask to rob a bank isn't a problem.  Robbing a bank is a problem.


 

Offline taxmapper

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Humans, by their very nature, relate badly to any 'otherness'. There are innumerable examples - obesity, a hunchback, strong glasses, crooked legs, etc. - that immediately become a reason for mockery, rejection or unpleasant jokes.
Some people do not need any justification for their meanness, while others do - and claim that they condemn this "otherness" because God tells them to or because it is required by "moral norms", without which society would collapse.
I am a Catholic, and I regret to say that many people in church circles mistreat people with gender identity disorders, and people with gynecomastia may be taken as such by the uninformed.
In fact, however, this is just a manifestation of the weakness of church people and has nothing to do with the gospel.
.................................
The replies to this thread are wonderful,  insightful, opinionated and informative. Thanks everyone. The explanation about clothing worn by the Israelite people during the wandering years, the years when the Pentateuch laws were being written is probably as close to accurate as we can hope to have. The difference between men's and women's clothing was most likely similar.
A very popular evangelical preacher took the time to explain the importance of the scripture about a man dressing in women's clothing. He enlightened the audience to the fact that the clothing of the period was similar. That the scripture is intended to teach that the individual committing the act of dressing alternatively is doing such as a mode of deception to avoid responsibility. God sees that deception and will condemn the individual.
I believe that if bras were sold in both men's and women's clothing departments, and always had been, we, today, wouldn't be having these discussions.
I have been a bicycle commuter all my life. When my moobs started hanging down in a most unattractive way I purchased a sport bra. When temperatures rose I would remove the shirt and wear the bra only, like so many females do. I got odd stares and occasional chuckles. But I didn't care. Those people were just showing their ignorance. I could just imagine the response if I did not wear a bra for modesty reasons let alone support reasons.
So in regards to this, "dress" was the act of wearing specific articles of clothing. In some cases this included the veil (wholly female) vs. a face scarf men would wear similar to the modern "shemaug" that multiple foreign troops use in places such as Afghanistan similar to the Arabic keffiyeh, as well as colored articles that were gender specific, along with jewelry such as the rabiyd. 

Back to the veil; during weddings it was a symbol of before and after a wedding and other traditions. men wore head dresses to keep the sun off of them, but women's head dresses had a specific form, identifying them as such. Those veils were also a symbol of marital status, and other aspects of life. 
Typically, such veils in those times also used a crown like (or tiara if you wish) band that kept the veil in place.  Scholars are not wholly confident on this, but that band is found in various forms all through the middle east (Asia for you blokes in the UK) including Mesopotamia, Egypt, Syria, the whole of the Levant and such.. Similar veils are found in East Asian areas including China, Mongolia, India and such. 

The act of wearing such by men was considered an abomination before God because it mocked his creation first, and switched the established gender roles as spelled out in the Talmud and Torah. (Like saying that one either reads War and Peace or one speaks it...) But more so that it was the intentional portrayal of one as something they physically were not.  Male breasts at that time was looked upon as a normal aspect un-condemned similar to passing gas.. it simply was. 


Regardless, the gender specific clothing even during the middle ages had many similarities, as well as during the Roman, Greek and Egyptian era. 
Where the concern is today is not so much that one wears opposite gender clothing, but that many Christians see the agenda that has been behind the movement is said to be out to destroy Christianity as a whole. This is what is seen by those part of Christianity, and see that gender aspect as a part of a larger beast. 

There is no question in my mind that many Christians I know simply do not care, and there are many that do. Its more than ignorance, its interpretation.  Because if such gender specific aspects are so absolute, then where is the cry against Indiana Jones wearing a fedora or as previously noted, the wrist watch? 

To get hung up on stereotyping is folly.  I have met alot of "Christian men" who struggle with similar aspects and rectifying what a preacher tells them over what is a natural aspect of their lives in other ways. 





Gino

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If more of us Christians were more Christ like the world would be a better place. 

Offline gotgyne

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I was a roman catholic but gave up my church membership in my early 20s. This was 40 years ago. Priests of the roman catholic church (and the protestant church as well) have sexually abused thousands of children in my country and I'm uneager to support these institutions anymore with my tax. Here in Germany the church tax is collected by the tax and revenue office. To believe in God needs no church!
John
A bra is just an article of clothing for people with breasts.

Online Johndoe1

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In my experience, "Jesus Followers" are much more accepting than "Christians." They are not the same, even though both claim the same thing.
Womanhood is not defined by breasts, and breasts are not indicative of womanhood. - Melissa Fabello

Busted (and happy)

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My general comment on the the Christian community (I am an active member) is that when folk are really vocal on any subject they are most often just projecting their own problems onto others.
The gospel is very clear that we are prone to see the speck of sawdust in someone else's eye rather than the great plank in our own.
As I have contributed else where the book of of Deuteronomy forbids the wearing of female clothing. Read any reliable Jewish view of this and you you will find it is far from clear as to what exactly the Hebrew actually means , vast possibilities. Also, I strongly suspect the critics who magnify the specks in others eyes are probably wearing polycotton clothing. The same passage forbids clothing of mixed fibres.
Talk about hypocrites

Offline gotgyne

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Talk about hypocrites
This was always my problem with some members. I don't deny that there are a lot of sincere and valuable members of all churches. But on the other hand there are always some well known examples of the opposite. In my village exists a "Katholischer Frauenbund" (Catholic League for Women). Two years ago an elderly lady and member of this league became ill. Nobody of this league asked her, if they could do something for her or "are you okay?" and so on. No, they asked her why she had not been at the service. No words of solace or good wishes. Next example: At saturday evening at the end of a bus tour with my wife and me as guests. "I'm sure we'll see all of you tomorrow morning at the service!" said the leader. I dislike peer pressure and was inclined to answer with "no!" but remained silent for my wife's sake. Or my former colleague at work. I was a driver of a Mercedes Sprinter with disabled children to school in the early morning and back in the afternoon. He was an attendent for the children. He nerver said "hello" or "good morning" to the parents and the children. He handled them as if they were parcels. I had a lot of trouble with him. Even a father had threatend to punch him. Ultimately the school principal achieved his dismissal after many complaints of the parents. But on sundays he is the first at the service. I would prefer not to go to heaven if such people were already there.
John

Confused old man

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I am a Christian and go to church. My wife is not a Christian and does not go to church because of what she saw in church members when she was young. She has told me to wear my underwire bra and a skirt to church and see how accepting your so called Christians are. We are all children in the eyes of god?..probably not in their eyes she says.

Offline blad

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I am a Christian and go to church. My wife is not a Christian and does not go to church because of what she saw in church members when she was young. She has told me to wear my underwire bra and a skirt to church and see how accepting your so called Christians are. We are all children in the eyes of god?..probably not in their eyes she says.
In all fairness, if you wear a skirt anywhere you will attract some attention.

But I know what you are saying.
If the bra fits, wear it.

Orb

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I am a Christian and go to church. My wife is not a Christian and does not go to church because of what she saw in church members when she was young. She has told me to wear my underwire bra and a skirt to church and see how accepting your so called Christians are. We are all children in the eyes of god?..probably not in their eyes she says.
I once heard it said, " The number one cause of Atheism is Christians."

  I have said many times that my church is filled with people that know God and come to worship and others that attend to learn about God.  Not all that know Him have all the answers and continue to do things wrong.  One thing I will say is my church is filled with sinners at lest trying to understand and do better.  Do they always get it right?  For sure not.  

  As for you wife's view.  I know many who subscribe to that.  What I can't understand is why she, they, let others impact their behavior so.  Isn't that what we are all here for?   Encouraging each other to not listen to the voices and let the actions of others impact our self worth and life in a negative way. ( Coping with a bust many could only wish to have and we're learning to accept amidst societal pressures?)  I hope she can get beyond that and live her life and make choices based on her beliefs and not let the others win.  They are wrong!   Its her life only to live.  

Offline oldguy

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I am a Christian and go to church. My wife is not a Christian and does not go to church because of what she saw in church members when she was young. She has told me to wear my underwire bra and a skirt to church and see how accepting your so called Christians are. We are all children in the eyes of god?..probably not in their eyes she says.
Remind her of Jesus second rule.  "Do unto others as you would have them undo to you"  I believe this applies more to your wife then to the congregation.  

I have worn my bra to many Catholic Masses.  It has never been a problem.  I don't flaunt it.  Fall has made it easier and looking forward to winter.

Offline Ivegotum

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The remark in Deuteronomy had to do with the fact that a man in female clothes was considered to have dedicated himself to a pagan goddess. That of course was forbidden.

Dudewithboobs

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Here’s the other thing about when people go to Old Testament for things. Those laws aren’t relevant today. There’s a reason the New Testament exists and if a Christian has an argument against a man who wears bras or other clothes identifiable as women’s clothing the New Testament should be the foundation for their argument. Similarly the foundation of ones rebuttal. But the Bible has become a bit of a Google search now days. You can find anything to support and make an argument for either side. Christians are adamant in taking things out of context to fit their narrative or bias and when it comes to this topic I find a mind won’t change politics, social norms, etc are pretty deep rooted for most to where one may make one understand their use of women’s clothing without intention to present as female etc but accepting it ehhhh


 

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