Sigmund Freud: "Anatomy is Destiny" (1924)

[gotgyne]

What do you think of Sigmund Freud's statement "anatomy is destiny" in his work "The Dissolution of the Oedipus Complex" from 1924?

Is our anatomy, our body parts, our destiny? Or is it the body chemistry, our hormones? We know that estrogen (dominance) is responsible for the development of our breasts. But is it responsible for our feelings as well?

The question is not so clear as it seems. Of all men with gynecomastia there are men who hate it and want surgery under all circumstances, but other men as we here in this part of the forum, embrace our breasts. Is this part of our education, our role models (father, mother), the influence and expectations of society or what else?
John

[Justagirl💃]

What do you think of Sigmund Freud's statement "anatomy is destiny" in his work "The Dissolution of the Oedipus Complex" from 1924?

Is our anatomy, our body parts, our destiny? Or is it the body chemistry, our hormones? We know that estrogen (dominance) is responsible for the development of our breasts. But is it responsible for our feelings as well?

The question is not so clear as it seems. Of all men with gynecomastia there are men who hate it and want surgery under all circumstances, but other men as we here in this part of the forum, embrace our breasts. Is this part of our education, our role models (father, mother), the influence and expectations of society or what else?
John

I think the 'accepted social norms' have a lot to do with men wanting their breasts removed. They are in fact oblivious to the fact that removal doesn't do away with estrogen dominance. 

Perhaps some do understand and would rather just deal with crying on sad movies than bumps on their chests. That might be touching on individual circumstances. 

I can only analysis myself as I am not trained in that field. 

I myself feel I was destined to live as a woman, but family and social pressures forced me into living a life that wasn't mine. One of my past posts was about 'not living a lie', and that was really key to MY acceptance. 

I was born pretty much on-the-fence, and I decide which side of the fence I fall on. That as how I found acceptance. 

[42CSurprise!]

...Freud's theory of psychoanalysis has been criticized for its emphasis on biology and its lack of scientific evidence. Many modern psychologists reject the idea that anatomy is destiny and argue that behavior is influenced by a complex interplay of biological, social, and environmental factors. While it is true that genetic and biological factors can play a role in shaping behavior, the environment also has a significant impact. For example, a child's upbringing, experiences, and social environment can all influence their personality, values, and behavior.

One area where the idea of anatomy as destiny has been particularly contentious is in the study of gender and sexuality. Freud's early views on sexuality emphasized the importance of biology and instinct, but later in his career, he began to explore the role of social and cultural factors in shaping sexual behavior. Many modern psychologists argue that gender and sexuality are heavily influenced by social and cultural factors, rather than being solely determined by biology...

Anatomy is Destiny

The first paragraph says it all.  I also posted on another thread my thoughts on the matter.

Acceptance/re: I'm full of self-acceptance, but...

I appreciate a more expansive view of these matters.  It is much more than breasts/brassieres... as tantalizing as those topics can be for someone mesmerized by his breasts...

[JoniDee]

I clearly remember telling my grandmother (when I was 5 years old) that I loved her so much, I had decided that I'd grow breasts like hers when I became older. She was shocked that I'd think such a thing, telling me that I was a boy and only girls grew boobies. I asked "Why?" she said "Because." That's when I realized that I was both. In fact, I had a special tingle when I first heard the song "I Enjoy Being A Girl" from the Broadway show "The Flower Drum Song"...and I still do.

Joni😎💋

[Justagirl💃]

As a child I was coddled by my grandmother. She seemed to be the only one that understood me after mother left.
I learned to sew, cook, knit, and talk about girly things. I had hair down too my waist and about 12ish grew curves to match.
Grandma understood I was 'born different', and was raising me the way I seemed to fit best.

All that abruptly ended when my father stepped in and decided to change things. Ballet went away as did piano lessons. Sports became my new world (I sucked at them). My curves were fought off with a visit to a sports doctor and testosterone treatments that lasted two years (curves still grew anyways).

I was taught that what I had was an embarrassment and needed to be hidden at all costs. I was born 'deformed' according to my father, and I would just have to find a way of hiding.

That new life prepared by father became my norm and what I lived under up until a few years ago.

Acceptance meant realising that I am still that long haired curvy little girl grandma was raising, and what my father prescribed was living a lie.

"While it is true that genetic and biological factors can play a role in shaping behavior, the environment also has a significant impact."

In my case being born without the normal male appendage was a significant aspect, the curves just compounded the 'biological factors'. The 'environment' around me as prescribed by my father only gave me a sense to 'lie to myself and those near to me'. Quite counter productive aspect of my upbringing. 

I could have been like most children born with my condition and surgically 'fixed'. Raised a girl, and I might have never known. But my parents decided to leave things alone and try to mold destiny themselves. 

[Justagirl💃]

I clearly remember telling my grandmother (when I was 5 years old) that I loved her so much, I had decided that I'd grow breasts like hers when I became older. She was shocked that I'd think such a thing, telling me that I was a boy and only girls grew boobies. I asked "Why?" she said "Because." That's when I realized that I was both. In fact, I had a special tingle when I first heard the song "I Enjoy Being A Girl" from the Broadway show "The Flower Drum Song"...and I still do.

Joni😎💋

I was never a big fan of Shania Twain until she came out with 'Man, I feel like a woman'. 

My attachment to that song made my 'then wife' a bit frustrated, and she ended up not liking the song after awhile. 

Man! I Feel Like A Woman! https://g.co/kgs/2JYDQX

[BodyPos34B]

When I was a kid I played dress up and got make overs from female friends even girlfriends I had. Do nails play female style games. I also played war and got in to fights. In my earlier years I would end up trying bras and other things out of curiosity and it would end up feeling right and comfortable and while others got in to women’s clothing for thrill or what have you. I would wear things because it made me feel better not anything else. Years pass things go away and I never touched things for a decade plus just outgrew the idea of it or whatever. Few years ago adult onset of gynecomastia and other issues of estrogen dominance and I’m back in a bra. 
I wouldn’t call it destiny or the universe calling down like hey you if you want to wear one I’ll give you two reasons to lol. But it is interesting that many had a history of experimenting with gender crossing attire at some point just to come back around and actually need it whether it be for support of breasts or comfort of jeans and tops due to body changes and all

[Evolver]

In my earlier years I would end up trying bras and other things out of curiosity and it would end up feeling right and comfortable and while others got in to women’s clothing for thrill or what have you. 

One thing that was recently put to me elsewhere, was that what you just described might be a sense of relief, not happiness. If you feel 'normal' dressing that way, it might have a deeper meaning...

[BodyPos34B]

Perhaps. Not sure. I don’t care to throw a dress on and grow my hair out and practice make up. I definitely am male and don’t care to be anything other than. But who knows I suppose. With wife and daughter it’s not an internal discussion I give much time to. 

[42CSurprise!]

Perhaps. Not sure. I don’t care to throw a dress on and grow my hair out and practice make up. I definitely am male and don’t care to be anything other than. But who knows I suppose. With wife and daughter it’s not an internal discussion I give much time to.

I'm in a similar situation though without the wife and daughter.  Clearly we're dealing both with our unique hormonal stew and the experiences we've had along the way.  My experiences of sexual trauma when I was an infant and young boy definitely shaped my relationship with my body, my sexuality and my relationship with brassieres.  When I first put on my neighbor's brassiere at age 12 it was a highly charged sexual experience for me.  I loved the feeling then and every other time I wore a brassiere.  What I've described as crossdressing I've engaged in at numerous times in my life, was really about wearing a brassiere.  Like you, my body eventually gave me a good excuse to put on a brassiere and I love wearing one.  I love the feel of the band around my chest and the soft cups shaping my rather voluptuous breasts feel wonderful.  The erotic dimension is somewhat diminished.  I attribute that to the diminishing testosterone in my system which doubtless is the reason these breasts appeared.  (I guess I shouldn't be surprised that as my breasts grow my penis shrinks...  I understand anatomy well enough to know that the penis and clitoris serve similar purposes when it comes to arousal.  Men get the larger organ extended from the body and women get the smaller organ close to the body.)

I recall the time years ago when I applied eyeliner and mascara.  I've always been complimented on my long eyelashes and deep blue eyes.  It was fun wearing makeup though I never shaved my beard.  I remember feeling a bit envious of a fellow student, a man who wore eye makeup and always had a lovely scarf around his neck.  He was married to another student but clearly he was bending his gender.  I never was brave enough to go that far.  I remained in the closet then as I do now.

I'm content as a feminized man and delight in having breasts.  I expect those early sexual experiences will always color how I relate to having breasts and wearing a brassiere.  I'm fine with that.  Again, we each come to this moment in our lives with unique experiences and unique bodies.  How could it be otherwise?

[BodyPos34B]

It is quite incredible how early developments in our experiences shape the remaining time of our lives. Great bad promoted or traumatic no matter the issues dealt to us in the beginning no doubt shape so much of the road forward. 

Even in therapy it isn’t a resolve of fixing the issue but generally a resolve of being aware of the root of the issue. Which prompts the question to me if anything can really change anything or are we to be the way things are regardless. Certainly free will and other things provide option to take different roads if we want. But generally those roads are met with potholes of confusion, dissatisfaction, anger due to suppressing things and the only other way it comes out is negative emotion. Which no doubt gives explanation to why so many trans folks who take the hormonal therapy route are noted from those around them as a totally different and relaxed person or happier person. Not because of the hormones but because of the suppression of self and the freeing of self finally to be happy in their own. 

This is no reflection of self or others or any but just to those who go that road. Others like many here, don’t intervene with the obvious estrogen dominance that took place to get many of us in bras and other body changes. We recognize what it is. Most I’m sure hope it stops or stalls to where further growth or changes don’t occur. And if it doesn’t then so be it. Which makes me wonder if we don’t care as things progress due to our past or if in fact it’s a basic part of maturity and not caring and a long as I’m happy and healthy and those around me don’t mind then whatever. 

[42CSurprise!]

As a child I was coddled by my grandmother. She seemed to be the only one that understood me after mother left.
I learned to sew, cook, knit, and talk about girly things. I had hair down too my waist and about 12ish grew curves to match.
Grandma understood I was 'born different', and was raising me the way I seemed to fit best.

All that abruptly ended when my father stepped in and decided to change things. Ballet went away as did piano lessons. Sports became my new world (I sucked at them). My curves were fought off with a visit to a sports doctor and testosterone treatments that lasted two years (curves still grew anyways).

I was taught that what I had was an embarrassment and needed to be hidden at all costs. I was born 'deformed' according to my father, and I would just have to find a way of hiding.

That new life prepared by father became my norm and what I lived under up until a few years ago.

Acceptance meant realising that I am still that long haired curvy little girl grandma was raising, and what my father prescribed was living a lie.

"While it is true that genetic and biological factors can play a role in shaping behavior, the environment also has a significant impact."

In my case being born without the normal male appendage was a significant aspect, the curves just compounded the 'biological factors'. The 'environment' around me as prescribed by my father only gave me a sense to 'lie to myself and those near to me'. Quite counter productive aspect of my upbringing.

I could have been like most children born with my condition and surgically 'fixed'. Raised a girl, and I might have never known. But my parents decided to leave things alone and try to mold destiny themselves.

What a tragic story Birdie.  I'm sorry.  I say the same thing to every trauma survivor I meet.  Every infant relies on care providers to survive but sadly, many of us didn't receive what psychologists call "good enough" parenting.  My former wife is a good friend to a woman whose son was born with ambiguous genitalia.  I don't know all the details of what happened but I know how challenging it was for them when their first child arrived with that condition.  But I know they were loving parents and Ben has grown to be a fine young man with one biological brother and one adopted sister.

I'm happy for you that you're coming to peace with who you are... a woman.  Coming to terms with my past as I also come to terms with changes happening in my body is important for me as well... though I remain a man... a feminized man for sure.  I'm content with that.  I'm also very pleased that this side of the website provides room for these conversations.  They surely belong here since the arrival of breasts is not so much a problem to solve, but a life experience to be understood.  How we respond is ultimately up to us, but it would be lovely if whatever we choose to do is done with kindness and care.  There is nothing wrong with accepting what nature provides for us.  I'm ever mindful of a saying my former boss had typed on a card behind his desk... "You can't push a string up hill."  I'm afraid we often do that.  I say "Go with the flow..." 

[BodyPos34B]

“They surely belong here since the arrival breasts is not so much a problem to solve, but a life experience to be understood”

What a great way to say it. 

[42CSurprise!]

...Even in therapy it isn’t a resolve of fixing the issue but generally a resolve of being aware of the root of the issue. Which prompts the question to me if anything can really change anything or are we to be the way things are regardless...

I've come to the conclusion that changes happen slowly and ONLY when we get out of the way.  By that I mean most of us, in our attempt to contend with the slings and arrows of life... the residue of early development challenges, create a sense of self and a view of the world that distorts reality and leaves us carrying confusion and shame.  We spend most of our lives trying to be better and do better even as we try to control people and situations in which we find ourselves.  Good therapy will help us understand the burden we're carrying and give us tools to find a healthier relationship with ourselves and a more honest assessment of people, places and things.  Self-acceptance is part of that journey, as is self-compassion for all the ways in which we've struggled in life.  When we stop trying to be perfect and listen deeply to what is happening in the moment, it is possible a healthier response will arise.  Although many are so damaged by the traumas of life that they really aren't capable of acting with kindness, most of us have the capacity for kindness, care, joy, love.  They simply need to be allowed to exist.  When we're driven by shame and fear, it is very difficult to find those qualities.  That is what the healing journey is all about.  Accepting our bodies can be part of that, but it is actually small potatoes compared with the possibility of fully embracing our aliveness.  Thus ends the epistle for this Sunday morning...

[blad]

In terms of "anatomy is destiny", the development of breasts at age 13 is the only reason that introduced me to trying a bra. I had no previous inclination to experiment with anything not on the boys side of the isle.