Author Topic: Books  (Read 13288 times)

Offline serg

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I quite enjoyed Dr Faustas but not as much as some of Marlowe's other plays.

Although I'm quite a big Will Shakespeare fan. I'd probs say Coriolanus is the favourite of my plays by him.

Offline hypo

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If you like Shakespear- Hamlet surely.

Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,

Offline headheldhigh01

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shakespeare searches long or in vain for peers, but i still think the lyric quality of housman is unmatched.  the scene at the below is a crossroads (note the reason in its image of a cross), since the subject of the poem in older days was forbidden to be buried, by virtue of how he died, in a churchyard.  

(from Last Poems, in The Collected Poems of A.E. Housman)
XXX
Sinner's Rue

I walked alone and thinking,
 And faint the nightwind blew
And stirred on mounds at crossways
 The flower of sinner's rue.  

Where the roads part they bury
 Him that his own hand slays,
And so the weed of sorrow
 Springs at the four cross ways.  

By night I plucked it hueless,
 When morning broke 'twas blue:
Blue at my breast I fastened
 The flower of sinner's rue.  

It seemed a herb of healing,
 A balsam and a sign,
Flower of a heart whose trouble
 Must have been worse than mine.  

Dead clay that did me kindness,
 I can do none to you
But only wear for breastknot
 The flower of sinner's rue.  
« Last Edit: March 10, 2005, 06:27:37 PM by headheldhigh01 »
* a man is more than a body will ever tell
* if it screws up your life the same, is there really any such thing as "mild" gyne?

Offline hypo

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I like that Head and may be tempted to purchase a copy.

But my Shakespear quote was a soliloquy in the context of the play as opposed out and out poetry- but i'm not saying anything new there.

These are some of my favourite poems- I hope you like them.  You might like the reference to more simpler poetry in the first of these that relates to Shakespear.

Longfellow

THE DAY IS DONE
The day is done, and the darkness
Falls from the wings of Night,
As a feather is wafted downward
From an eagle in his flight.
I see the lights of the village
Gleam through the rain and the mist,
And a feeling of sadness comes o'er me
That my soul cannot resist:
A feeling of sadness and longing,
That is not akin to pain,
And resembles sorrow only
As the mist resembles the rain.
Come, read to me some poem,
Some simple and heartfelt lay,
That shall soothe this restless feeling,
And banish the thoughts of day.
Not from the grand old masters,
Not from the bards sublime,
Whose distant footsteps echo
Through the corridors of Time.
For, like strains of martial music,
Their mighty thoughts suggest
Life's endless toil and endeavor;
And to-night I long for rest.
Read from some humbler poet,
Whose songs gushed from his heart,
As showers from the clouds of summer,
Or tears from the eyelids start;
Who, through long days of labor,
And nights devoid of ease,
Still heard in his soul the music
Of wonderful melodies.
Such songs have power to quiet
The restless pulse of care,
And come like the benediction
That follows after prayer.
Then read from the treasured volume
The poem of thy choice,
And lend to the rhyme of the poet
The beauty of thy voice.
And the night shall be filled with music
And the cares, that infest the day,
Shall fold their tents, like the Arabs,
And as silently steal away.

NOT WAVING BUT DROWNING

Stevie Smith

Nobody heard him, the dead man,
But still he lay moaning:
I was much further out than you thought
And not waving but drowning.
Poor chap, he always loved larking
And now he's dead
It must have been too cold for him his heart gave way,
They said.
Oh, no no no, it was too cold always
(Still the dead one lay moaning)
I was much too far out all my life
And not waving but drowning.

Dylan Thomas Do not go gentle into that good night

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Phillip Larkin

At Grass
The eye can hardly pick them out
From the cold shade they shelter in,
Till wind distresses tail and main;
Then one crops grass, and moves about
- The other seeming to look on -
And stands anonymous again
Yet fifteen years ago, perhaps
Two dozen distances surficed
To fable them : faint afternoons
Of Cups and Stakes and Handicaps,
Whereby their names were artificed
To inlay faded, classic Junes -
Silks at the start : against the sky
Numbers and parasols : outside,
Squadrons of empty cars, and heat,
And littered grass : then the long cry
Hanging unhushed till it subside
To stop-press columns on the street.
Do memories plague their ears like flies?
They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows.
Summer by summer all stole away,
The starting-gates, the crowd and cries -
All but the unmolesting meadows.
Almanacked, their names live; they
Have slipped their names, and stand at ease,
Or gallop for what must be joy,
And not a fieldglass sees them home,
Or curious stop-watch prophesies :
Only the grooms, and the grooms boy,
With bridles in the evening come.

STOP ALL THE CLOCKS

by W.H. Auden

Stop all the clocks, cut off the telephone,
Prevent the dog from barking with a juicy bone,
Silence the pianos and with muffled drum
Bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.

Let aeroplanes circle moaning overhead
Scribbling on the sky the message He Is Dead,
Put the crepe bows round the white necks of the public doves,
Let the traffic policemen wear black cotton gloves.

He was my North, my South, my East and West,
My working week and my Sundays rest,
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought that love would last forever: I was wrong.

The stars are not wanted now: put out every one;
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
For nothing now can ever come to any good.

I hope you liked them.

Offline zjab58

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Quote
I quite enjoyed Dr Faustas


I just couldn't get past the complete lack of plot development. I think the story was good but during the 24 year jump there is no character development. I just didn't like it. It had good poetry, but that isn't what floats my boat when it comes to Drama. I'm more of a modern American man. (Eugene O'Neil, Arthur Miller, Tennessee Williams)

Offline hypo

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If you didn't like something based on Faust then I doubt you would have like the original work by Goethe

Here is a translation of a bit that I think can be applied to men who find themselves with gynecomastia and want to get rid of it

Quote
Let's plunge ourselves into the roar of time, the whirl of accident: may pain and pleasure, Success and failure, shift as they will-

It is only action that can make a man.
Unquote

If you like plays I recomend chekov, although of course both Miller and Williams are also fantastic.

Offline serg

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Quote


I just couldn't get past the complete lack of plot development. I think the story was good but during the 24 year jump there is no character development. I just didn't like it. It had good poetry, but that isn't what floats my boat when it comes to Drama. I'm more of a modern American man. (Eugene O'Neil, Arthur Miller, Tennessee Williams)



True the plot was very thin in Faustaus. I think I enjoyed it  more because of the breaks it makes in literary convention and the whole historical context of it all during the reformation.

I read it while I was doing my history degree  ;)

Offline zjab58

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I can't stand Chekov. Of course I have only read The Cherry Orchard, but that was enough. I wanted to rip my hair out.

Quote
I read [Faustus] while I was doing my history degree  

That explains a lot. I did like the theological questions that it posed, but as a play it just struck me as incomplete. I do like some of the conjectures about Marlow's life. It would be an interesting topic to look more into in more depth.

Offline Cuttin Headz

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I finished reading that shit book Romeo and Juliet by, guess who... Willy Shakespeare!!! And boy o boy, did it suck! i had to for school, so you know how that is. I couldn't understand a word it said, so i had to look up at http://www.SparkNotes.com, and i nailed the test. Right now, i am currently reading The Enemy Within by Michael Savage, the radio show guy from Sirius TalkRight.

Juliet: Oh Romeo, Romeo, wherefore art thou?

Romeo: Right here, stupid! (throws the fatal flying guillotine at Juliet's neck)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 05:37:19 PM by Bubby_the_Tour_G »
Fatal Flying Guillotine providing free surgery for people with Gynecomastia, just ask Dr. Ti Tu Fat

Offline brother_gyne

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have a look at the film with Di Caprio - its set in America of today. You might get a different take on Willy.  

Offline Cuttin Headz

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I have seen that movie, and boy did it suck. Its in like Verona Beach or something, with Leonardo DiCraprio, and it was ridiculous. It retained the original Renaissance dialogue, but set in a modern time, and instead of Friar Lawrence, it was Father Laurence. The gun when Romeo capped Tybalt, who was played by that wiseasscrack Leguziamo, said Sword 9mm inscripted on it. Didn't like it. Hollywood ruins everything.

Want a real movie? See Disciples of the 36 Chambers, Chapter 2 with the Wu-Tang live in San Bernardino, CA, 2004!

Offline zjab58

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Romeo and Juliet is not even close to the best of Shakespeare. It is just one of the easiest to understand, and isn't that deep so they have highschoolers read read it. It shows how stupid our society is when people can't figure Shakespeare out. When he was writing it wasn't for the elite scholars. He wrote for the masses that had no schooling, and he was very popular with lots of money. They got it.

 I liked that movie. I always like to see new ideas for old plays. How could Hollywood ruin something that you didn't think was good anyway?

Offline hypo

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The only reason people find Shakespeare difficult is down to the fact that language has evolved and much of what was written is almost like a foreign language to many.

The same goes for many authors that date back- Chaucer for example.

The best of Shakespeare- Hamlet, Richard The III and Henry the V IMHO.

Offline zjab58

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Shakespeare wrote in a time of transition between Middle English and Modern English, but most of the changes that were going to take place had already happened by the time Shakespeare came around. Chaucer, however, is completely different because he wrote in Middle English which is basically a French dialect with a small English Lexicon built in.
   The Language in Shakespeare isn't difficult, it is the same as we use today for the most part. The hardest part is the syntax. Because it is technically poetry, Shakespeare used a lot freer of a syntax than we use in our everyday speech. This combined with The allusions to ancient Greeks makes it harder to get some of the imagery, but Shakespeare wrote for a lower audience than even Marlow who is even on a higher plane of intellect.
    I just think that our society has stopped thinking about anything except for ourselves, and because of this we are gettin dumber.

Offline hypo

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I understand Shakespeare; I don't need you to give me a breakdown as to the nature of the language, my point stands.

An example of which is below; taken from Hamlet’s third soliloquy.


The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pang's of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin?

(Contumely, quietus, Bodkin)

The above contains language that most people in modern times do not understand.

Also Shakespeare did not write plays so that they could be read (forgive me for stating the obvious), rather his works are supposed to be performed as he intended them- as plays.  In this context when you combine unfamiliar language with unfamiliar sentence construction spoken at a natural pace in a play, where there is no rewind function or going back; it is very problematic for many modern audiences.

At least it is unless they first studied his works on paper or have been very well educated as to the history of the English language.

The difference between written and spoken language is well highlighted when you compare the similarities between written English text and German translations of the same text.  Both languages appear to be similar (given they are both in the Germanic family) and words can be picked out and understood, sometimes even the meaning of whole sentences.  However when both texts are read/spoken at a natural pace, it can be impossible for a non German speaker to pick out anything from the translated texts such is the difference between written and spoken language.

Of course I am not saying that the difference between the English of Shakespeare’s day is as different to modern English, as modern English is to German, but the point remains and is very valid.

If the language of Shakespeare was easy enough for your typical modern audience, then what do you think is the reason for the modernization of Shakespeare’s players, something that goes on world wide (not that I agree with it)?

And why do you think that there are books, essays on-line and teaching classes that help to understand Shakespeare?

I think trying to separate the syntax/sentence construction and the language itself is a little pointless, particularly as the two are often so intertwined.

Given that Shakespeare often runs in iambic pentameter and is poetic trying to separate syntax from the language itself is very difficult to do without ruining the work.

Something that many translators have found- Randall suffered horrendously with this when trying to translate Goeth’s Faust from German into English.




 

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