Author Topic: moving beyond gyne  (Read 10350 times)

Offline endurer

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I am glad to see such a big mailing group in this area. I am 35, male. I had GM during early teen years and got it removed through surgery long back. Though the fluffy fat was removed, the area still embarrasses me when I have to remove the shirt in public. Anyway, at 35 years of age, I dont need to remove my short off in public for any reason now!

But the big question is, what happened after this!

Once the boobs are removed, you feel everything is settled and carry on quite happily, until you discover quite late that there may be more you might have missed. Like, I have a broader hip bone (like in females), a narrow waist, a poorly built upper body, a thin (to some level girly) voice, not so dense hair on face, etc. Since I am a skinny person with poorly built upper body, my broad hip and narrow wasit show off easily if I my shirt. I think all people with gyne may not have these problems, but still many might have. But I am not able to find any such or related messages at all here?! No one else has these problems?

Also I feel quite embarrased, goofy and shy when I have to speak to females. I have had this problem ever since my adolecense. I had thought that it will go off once I age. Though it has reduced a little bit, due to my efforts in meditaion, job, life experiences etc, the main problem is still there intact. Because of this I never had any girl friend, etc. Though I wished to many times.

I think my libido, feelings for the opposite sex are also very low.

I am married and have a happy family, son is 6 years old. And I have a good carrer too. My above feelings may seem funny now! But I am just not able to ignore the fact that I have been a sucker all my life and that I have lost a lot in life. I say this I have lost a lot, though I have a good carrer now. Such is my depression. When all my friends used to have girl friends in college, I was a watcher-by. I dont mean sex. But I did not have the chance of simple romactic talks even. This again may look sily. But to not to have these simple pleasures in life even once, feels different definitely.  Actually I explore the suicide option often, but since I am a coward and also thinking about my dear son and wife, I give up.

I met an endo and taking testosterone for last 2 years...there is some small changes...but not satisfying.

I think many people feel that happiness or normalcy is, just having normal legs, hands, eyes, etc, etc. But there is a lot more like the feelings (like romance, courage, maturity, etc). It is easy to say that these cravings are artificial and we have to take it easy and be god like!! But to really experience is a different thing! You dont notice the changes and the differences easily...but they appear only after long time...when the time and changes you have missed are quite a lot, then it strikes you.

Sorry if I am confusing you. But I am just looking for anyone who might have similar feelings and has overcome.

I even have some more sily problems! Like when I go out with friends sometime just casually, and end up in a dance club, everyone can dance easily if he wants to. But I just cannot. It may look simple...but to me it feels big! Because all through my life, I have never been able to make a single simple dance move, if not an awkward move.

Does no one else face such problems?

And the problem is, though I know that I cannot do a lot of things, my heart does not stop from knowing the pleasure of doing them , nor does it forget it!!

I have many many more worries like this....but I will not bore you much with those things further!

Doing body building exercises can help tidy up the body, but does it really help to improve your emotions, feelings, libido, etc?

I may sound like I am a day-dreamer....no...I have gone thru a lot of ups and downs in my career and life and learned rom it and now have a good carrer thru hard work. Only thing is, these problems never get settled.

Offline sillyguy

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Don't worry too much about the past, everyone has regrets, or at least they should have regrets.  There's still plenty of life left to enjoy.  Even if you're old with grand kids, there's an infinite amount life can offer.  Focus on the present and future.

You have a wife, child, friends and career that's a blessing.  You feel like you've been a sucker?  There is absolutely nothing wrong with having been a sucker...as long as you realized and can learn from it to improve your future.  Everybody's been a sucker.

Working out does improve your self-esteem.  It provides a 'high' that really feels quite nice.  Plus you'll carry yourself taller and stronger (I'm actually out of shape atm).  It won't fix everything as you need to build yourself from within as well.

I think life in general is hard for everyone, even if some appear to glide by with ease.  Cheer up.  You're the man, you just need to recognize it.

Offline KingCounter

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You sound like you have had a great life so far, and have many things to be proud of! Cheer up and enjoy life.

Offline Boobit

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I love your comment about your dancing. I'm exactly the same. I have two left feet. It's as though I should know how to dance, but can't. Same with other things too like playing a musical instrument, drawing etc. I think I should be able to do these things but for some frustrating reason I can't. You, are you, and like the rest of us have our own hang ups. Don't be fooled by the c0cksure, they just blag their way through life like the rest of us. They just hide it a little better. Life is a dream, it's an illusion, but a very convincing one. When it's all done and dusted, we'll wonder why we were so hung up. Yup - enjoy it why you're here.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 04:48:35 AM by Boobit »
Boobit

Gine2D

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Some of us have been there.  Look up & research Klinefelters Mosaic Syndrome

1st -  change your name from loser to winner.  Attitude is what counts.

2nd  - Get your male & female blood tests


3rd  -  Find a good endo that does hormone as his/her main speciality.  Most are diabeties docs.

Tests for Males

• Total Testosterone
• Bioavailable Testosterone (AKA "Free and Loosely Bound")
• Free Testosterone (if Bioavailable T is unavailable)
• DHT
• Estradiol (specify the "sensitive" assay for males)
• LH
• FSH
• Prolactin
• Cortisol
• Thyroid Panel
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Profile
• PSA (if over 40)
• IGF-1 (if HGH therapy is being considered)


FOLLOW-UP LABS

Two weeks after initiating a transdermal, or five weeks after the
first  injection start of gel:

• Total Testosterone
• Bioavailable Testosterone
• Free Testosterone (if Bioavailable T is still unavailable)
• Estradiol (specify the Extraction Method, or "sensitive" assay for males)
• DHT (especially if patient is using a transdermal delivery system)
• FSH (3rd Generation—ultrasensitive assay this time)
• CBC
• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
• Lipid Profile
• PSA (for more senior patients)
• IGF-1 (if GH Therapy has been initiated already)










INDIVIDUAL ASSAYS EXPLAINED

TOTAL TESTOSTERONE

This is the assay your patients will most focus on. It's also the
one physicians who do not understand TRT will use to deny patients
the testosterone supplementation they want, and need, when Total T
is at low-normal levels. Total T is important for titration of
dosing, but its relevance is reduced in older men (by virtue of
their increased serum concentrations of SHBG), in favor of:


BIOAVAILABLE TESTOSTERONE

Where we actually get the "bang" for the hormonal buck, so to speak.
This is the actual amount the body has available for use, as the
concentration of hormone available within the capillary beds
approximates the sum of the Free Testosterone plus that which is
loosely bound to carrier proteins, primarily albumin. If Bio T is
not readily available, Free T may be a second choice substitute, as
Bio T and Free T serum concentrations are well correlated.


DHT

This assay is especially important to draw, up-front and at follow-
up, if a transdermal testosterone delivery system is preferred by
the patient. I'll explain why later. DHT level may also help
indicate cause for ED symptoms.


ESTRADIOL

There are several reasons why this assay is VERY important, and
should not be ignored in ANY hypogonadism work-up (or subsequent
regimen). First, you definitely need to draw a baseline. Next,
elevated estrogen can, in and of itself, explain hypogonadal
symptoms. If E is elevated, controlling serum concentrations
(usually with an aromatase inhibitor, which prevents conversion of T
into E) may suffice in clearing the symptoms of hypogonadism. And
finally, rechecking it after beginning the initial dose of
testosterone will give the astute physician valuable information as
to how the patient's individual hormonal system functions, as well
as making sure estrogen does not elevate inappropriately secondary
to the testosterone supplementation.

I don't waste time and money drawing estrone and estriol. E2 is the
player of interest here. Unless you specify a `sensitive' assay for
male patients, the lab will run the Rapid Estradiol for fertility
studies in females, which is useless for our purpose here. Quest
Diagnostics calls this their Estradiol by Extraction Method.

Some practitioners believe that it is only the T/E ratio which is
significant, and therefore, as long as E "appropriately" rises with
elevations in T, all is well. However, the absolute concentration of
E is of concern, too, especially in light of new information
pointing to elevated estrogen as cause, or adjunctively encouraging,
several serious disease processes, including prostate and colon
cancer.


LH

As everyone knows, it is LH which stimulates the Leydig cells of the
testes to produce testosterone. A caveat, however: LH has a half-
life of only about 30 minutes. When you combine this fact with the
absolute pulsatile nature of its pituitary release, care must be
taken to not place too much weight upon a single draw. A luxury
would be to acquire serial draws, say, twenty minutes apart.
However, such would be both inconvenient and probably prohibitively
expensive for the patient. The most important reason to assay the
gonadotrophins is to differentiate between primary and secondary
(hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism.

FSH

The eight hour half-life of this hormone makes it a better marker
for gonadotrophin production. It is also less an acute phase
reactant to varying serum androgen and estrogen levels than LH.
Greatly elevated FSH levels could signal a gonadotrophin-secreting
pituitary tumor.

Of note, I run FSH (but not LH) on the follow-up labs, the new third
generation ("sensitive") assay, to determine the magnitude of HPTA
suppression secondary to androgen therapy. It also provides valuable
information for those patients undergoing TRT who are interested in
the state of their fertility.




PROLACTIN

A very important hormone, and must not be overlooked on initial work-
up. Approaching five percent of hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism is
associated with hyperprolactinemia, due to inhibition of
hypothalamic release of LHRH. Its serum concentration must be
maintained within physiological range (meaning neither too high nor
too low). Greatly elevated hyperprolactinemia, or hyperprolactinemia
plus a Total Testosterone less than 150ng/dL, equals a trip to an
Endocrinologist for an MRI of the sella turcica.

CORTISOL

True Anti-Aging medicine must be well-familiarized with the ins and
outs of this hormone, the only one our bodies cannot live without.
Elevated levels can cause secondary (hypogonadotrophic)
hypogonadism. I try controlling elevated cortisol with
Phosphatidylserine, 300mg QD, with good results. It is just as
important to watch for depressed cortisol levels, as well. The assay
of choice for that condition is a 24-hour urine.

THYROID PANEL

I have, for my own convenience, omitted the specifics of the
obligatory thyroid function panel you certainly will want to run.
Hypothyroidism mimics hypogonadism in several of its effects.

CBC

This is just good medicine. Ruling out anemia is important, of
course, as it may be a cause for the fatigue which brought the
patient into your office. You also want to establish baseline H&H,
for those rare cases where polycythemia becomes a problem (and we
are reminded smokers are at increased risk for polycythemia). Above
18.0/55.0 TRT is withheld, and therapeutic phlebotomy recommended.










CMP

Again, just good medicine. Baseline for sodium (which may elevate
initially secondary to androgen supplementation) is important. We
also want to see LFT's, as elevations in same secondary to androgen
supplementation are listed as a possible side effect in the product
literature (although I have yet to see this actually happen). I like
the BUN/creatinine ratio as a marker for hormonal hemo-
concentration, and also it gives me a hint of how compliant the
patient will be (because I always tell them to make sure to drink
plenty of water while fasting for the test).


Lipid Panel

This is drawn to provide your bragging rights when you drop the CHOL
30 points, thanks to your own good administration of TRT. You should
expect to see lowered TRIG and LDL's, too. Be advised, this will not
happen if you choose to elevate their androgens above the top
of "normal" range, i.e. providing what amounts to an anabolic
steroid cycle. Of course, this would no longer constitute TRT, as
the practitioner would then be choosing to damage the health and
well-being of the patient.

HDL does frequently drop a bit, but that is believed to be due to
increased REVERSE cholesterol transport; so much of the plaque is,
after being scavenged from the lining of the CV system by HDL, now
being chewed up by the liver. Androgens also elevate hepatic lipase,
and this may have an effect. The important thing to keep in mind is
that TRT inhibits foam cell formation.

PSA

For all patients over 40. Even though prostate CA is rare in men
under the age of fifty, we don't want it happening on our watch, do
we? At this time, rises in PSA above 0.75 are a contraindication to
TRT (until follow-up by a Urologist). You may find that, at the
initiation of TRT in older men, when serum androgen levels are
accelerating, PSA may, too. This is especially true when transdermal
delivery systems are employed, because they more greatly elevate
DHT. Once T levels have stabilized, PSA drops back down to roughly
baseline. You won't really see gross elevations in PSA secondary to
TRT administration in younger patients. New TRT patients need to be
cautioned, and reminded, to abstain from sexual relations prior to
the draw, as they may now be enjoying greatly elevated amounts of same.

I get a PSA up front on my over 40 patients, at the one month follow-
up in my more senior patients, and every six months after that. DRE
(Digital Rectal Exam) is recommended twice per year as well,
although the American Academy of Clinical Endocrinologists
backs "every six to twelve months" in their 2002 Guidelines for
treating hypogonadotrophic patients with TRT.

IGF-1

For those who are considering the addition of GH to their Anti-Aging
regimen. IGF-1 will rise from testosterone supplementation, and vice
versa. Let's grab a baseline now, before that happens.


THINGS TO LOOK OUT FOR:

CO-MORBIDITIES. Currently, only breast and active prostate cancer
are absolute contraindications for TRT. Patients with serious
cardiac, hepatic or renal disease must be monitored carefully due to
possible edema secondary to sodium retention. Also, TRT may
potentiate sleep apnea in some chronic pulmonary disease patients,
although studies have also shown it can actually ameliorate the
symptoms of sleep apnea.

DRUG INTERACTIONS. TRT decreases insulin or oral diabetic medication
requirements in diabetic patients. It also increases clearance of
propranolol, and decreases clearance of oxyphenbutazone in those
receiving such medications. TRT may increase coagulation times as
well.


TESTOSTERONE DELIVERY SYSTEMS

Now we have to decide, TOGETHER with our patient, what form of
testosterone delivery system we will START with. There are two basic
subsets of same—transdermals and injectables. Here are the current
options:







TESTOSTERONE GELS AND CREAMS

The only way to go, in my professional opinion, if physician and
patient prefer a compounded transdermal delivery system. They are easy to
apply, well absorbed, and rapidly establish stable serum androgen
levels (usually by the end of the second day). I recommend all
practitioners first try a testosterone gel for their TRT patients.

Much is made of the risk posed by accidental transferal of
testosterone to others, such as children or sexual partners. Simply
covering with a T-shirt has been shown to block transfer of the
hormone. The testosterone sinks into the skin within an hour, which
acts as the actual reservoir for the hormone's delivery. One may
then shower, or even swim, without worry. I remind my patients that
most of us have neither the time, nor the opportunity, for romance
until evening (given the recommended early morning application), and
a quick shower is always nice to "freshen up" then anyway.

Gels and creams, like all transdermal delivery systems, provide a
bigger boost in DHT levels, compared to injectable testosterone
preparations. This can be a double-edged sword. As DHT is
responsible for all the things of manhood, the transdermals are
better at treating ED than the injectables. However, issues of hair
loss and possible prostate morbidity (a contentiously debatable
point, to be sure) then come into play. Either way, please make sure
to monitor DHT with the transdermals. I'm just not comfortable with
gross elevations in DHT, and prefer to avoid adding finasteride
whenever possible.

Some have reported an increase in hair growth over the application
area(s). All physicians who administer TRT must be prepared to
disappoint their patients at this time by pointing out, sadly, this
same effect cannot be achieved on the scalp.

TESTOSTERONE PATCHES

These can be quite effective, but are inconvenient to use.
Approaching 2/3's of your patients will develop a contact dermatitis
from them at some point. Another drawback is that some patients
report they are constantly aware of their placement, and the patches
are embarrassingly obvious to other gentlemen in certain public
places, such as in the locker room.

The scrotal application variety is the most inconvenient. To see
what I would be putting my patients through, I tried them. After
just a couple days, I'd had more than enough. Men do not generally
enjoy shaving their scrotum, and the patches just do not stay on
well anyway. Applying a hair dryer to the patch, as they must be
warmed first, is also an annoyance. If you go to the gym during the
day, they look strange affixed to the genitals, and must be removed,
then reapplied, to shower. They do not stick well in the first
place, and even less so once they have been reapplied. Of the two
options, I found only the type with the extra adhesive had any
chance of remaining in place. The scrotal variety causes the largest
increases in DHT—which can be good or bad, as previously explained.

TESTOSTERONE PELLETS

In my opinion, their use is absolutely Stone Age. Sure, they can
provide extra revenue by virtue of a billable office based
procedure. However, needlessly exposing patients to the risks ALL
surgeries pose—hemorrhage and infection—is unwarranted. And the area
of insertion will be much tenderer than that following a mere IM
injection. But the real issue which selects against pellet
implantation is concerned with dosing. Let's say you establish
a "usual" initial dose for the pellets. As will be described in the
next section, there is absolutely no way to predict, up front, how a
patient will react to a given dose of testosterone, regardless of
the delivery system. So you bury these pellets in your patient's
backside, and (hopefully) draw follow-up labs in a month or so. What
are you to do if the total testosterone ends up greatly exceeding
the top of normal range (meaning the patient hyper-responded to the
treatment)? Now you must make a much wider incision to remove them,
or a portion of them (and who knows how many to take out?). With
their very long half-life, SOMETHING must be done, lest you risk
actually damaging the health of the patient by elevating
testosterone levels into what might be considered a bodybuilding
steroid cycle. And what if the pellets do not elevate T enough? You
must bring them back in to implant more, and it's difficult to sell
them on this idea, since they probably are not yet feeling the
advantages of TRT enough yet to motivate them into undergoing
another surgical procedure. It just doesn't make sense, to my way of
thinking.
Testosterone pellets do have some benefit in that selected patients
may believe it more convenient to come in every month or six weeks,
and then be done with it for a while. Also, because they release T
in a slow, steady rate, the pellets are less likely to induce
increases in aromatase activity.



TESTOSTERONE INJECTION

I'll start out by describing the drawbacks of IM testosterone. They
are inconvenient for patients who do not wish to give themselves
their own injections, as they must then make weekly trips to your
office for same. Why IM test MUST be dosed weekly will be described
in detail in another section. Some patients, as you well know, just
hate shots (although I have noticed several who had initially
claimed this, but admitted, once they had come to enjoy the benefits
of TRT, actually came to look forward to their weekly injection).
And no doubt, an invasive delivery system brings more risk than, for
instance, a testosterone gel or cream (the other best choice for
TRT).

When considering dosing of testosterone cypionate, it is important
to remember that, due to the weight of the cypionate ester, a 100mg
injection delivers, at best, 70mg of testosterone. This is important
to keep in mind when comparing the effects of a 100mg weekly
injection of test cyp to the 35mg total dose provided by Androgel
5gms QD over the same period.



If low testosterone, start with

HCG

Many practitioners consider this incredible hormone treatment of
choice for hypogonadotrophic (secondary) hypogonadism.
Such certainly makes sense, as supplementing with a LH analog indeed increases testosterone production in patients who do not concurrently suffer primary hypogonadism. But often, upwards of 1000IU per day must be given to achieve the desired serum T level. Even then, for some unexplained reason, while serum T levels may be adequately elevated, the patients simply do not report realization of the benefits of TRT, when HCG is administered as sole TRT. You also run the risk of inducing LH insensitivity at that dosage, and therefore may actually cause primary hypogonadism while attempting to treat secondary hypogonadism. HCG, especially at higher doses, also dramatically increases aromatase activity, thus inappropriately elevating estrogens.

 Personally, I recommend never giving more than 500IU of HCG at a time.*  %%% Gine2D, I think they have changed this to 250u every other day now.%%%

A real benefit of HCG is that it will prevent testicular atrophy. I do not think we should ignore the aesthetics of that consideration. Your patients will feel the same way.


OTHER MEDICATIONS

I occasionally hear of physicians trying to use a SERM (Selective
Estrogen Receptor Modulator) such as Clomid or Nolvadex, or even an
Aromatase Inhibitor (AI), such as Arimidex, as sole "TRT". All have
been shown to elevate LH, and therefore Total Testosterone levels.
However, patients report no long-term subjective benefits from these
strategies, and the studies thus far reported no long-term changes
in lean body mass, fatigue levels, libido, etc. An added risk of
using an AI is of driving estrogen levels too low, with deleterious
consequences for the lipid profile, calcium deposition, libido, etc.

Finally, Deca-Durabolin (Nandrolone) has no place in TRT. It has a
nasty side effect profile, including uncontrollable progesterone-
like effects (including gynocomastia) and risk of long-term
impotence.




THE MEAT AND POTATOES OF TRT

Now we will delve into the general strategy for administering TRT.

The decision is made, TOGETHER with the patient, which of the
various testosterone delivery systems is to be tried first. Be
prepared to make adjustments, and try other application methods. You
just don't know which will be best for each particular patient until
you try. Besides the simple fact the patient may have a personal
preference, or a logistical consideration (i.e.
inability/unwillingness to self-inject) for a given application,
every-body reacts differently to hormonal manipulation. Some hyper-
respond to a given initial dose, others show hardly any bump in
serum T levels on same. Yet when you switch to a different delivery
system, on initial dosing, they may convert to supraphysiological
androgen levels. The same is true of the subjective benefits from
TRT. I have patients who love testosterone gel because it
successfully treated their ED (the expected outcome because of
dramatically increased DHT production), others get more from IM
testosterone cypionate. My experience thus far has taught me two
lessons: (1) You don't know how a patient will react to a given
dose/system until you try and (2) NOTHING surprises me anymore.



There simply is no way to predict how a particular patient will
respond—not Medical History (i.e. number or severity of symptoms),
body weight, baseline hormone levels, even anabolic steroid history.
I have had very slight gentlemen barely elevate on 100mg of test cyp
per week, and massively muscled former steroid athletes who went to
nearly two times the top of "normal" range on the same dosage (they
had similar baselines). Likewise, one man may see only a modest
increase in DHT on 5gms of Androgel, another may become quite
supraphysiological on same.

I start my guys out on either testosterone cream/gel 5mgs QD or
testosterone cypionate 100mg per week. The IM test cyp must be
administered in weekly injections, as opposed to taking twice the
dosage every other week. Some physicians even dose every third or
fourth week, producing wide swings in serum androgen levels. This
puts the patient on an emotional roller coaster, increases the risk
of developing polycythemia, greatly accentuates aromatase activity,
and actually leaves them lower than they were when they started for
the last half of the cycle. In order to get the serum androgen
concentration to a stable level more quickly, I "frontload" 200mg
the first injection (unless converting over from a gel/cream).

No other medications which manipulate hormone levels are provided
until follow-up labs are returned. For IM test cyp patients, the
second panel is run following the fifth injection. I also keep in
mind the coordination of the injection with the lab draw, as peak
serum levels are attained at about the 48 hour point, then fall to
about 35% at the one week point. However, by the end of the fifth
week, the pharmacodynamics of testosterone cypionate (half life is 5-
8 days) are such that relatively stable serum levels are now being
produced via weekly injections.

Transdermals can be rechecked in two weeks. They produce stable
serum levels, as previously mentioned, for most by the end of the
second or third day. Logistically, it makes sense to send the
patient for follow-up labs after a fortnight, as there is then time
to get the labs back, and bring the patient in, before the initial
30-day supply of the medication runs out. This is better if an
adjustment in dosage is mandated by the follow-up labs, or to
convert to IM dosing should the patient produce too much DHT. It
would be a shame to have the patient refill a script for 5gms of
Androgel, when they, by their labs, are going to have their dosage
reduced to 2.5gms per day because they hyper-responded to the
initial dose, or waste money when what they reallyneed is to be
converted to test cyp.

The question of which testosterone delivery system is to be tried
first (IM or transdermal) is one which brings much confusion amongst
beginning practitioners of TRT. I would, when possible, always start
out a patient on a testosterone cream or gel. Ease of application,
avoidance of intrusion by injection, and increased probability of
successful ED treatment make this so. Also, stable serum levels are
attained quickly, determination of successful treatment is more
forthcoming (although the manufacturer of this product recommends at
least a couple months as adequate trial of therapy). If the labs AND
patient's answers to follow-up subjective report lead to a change to
IM testosterone, the conversion is an easy one to make. Simply apply
the gel, give the shot, then D/C the gel. However, if a patient is
started out on IM test cyp, for instance, yet the patient still does
not feel "right" (and thus you may want to try a transdermal
delivery system to better raise DHT levels), how are you, given the
pharmacodynamics of the testosterone ester, going to safely and
successfully dose the conversion to a transdermal?

Dosing changes are made, TOGETHER with the patient, once follow-up
labwork is back AND the patient is interviewed regarding their
subjective reports of changes in libido, sexual performance,
fatigue, strength, mental outlook, etc. Often they will tell you
they felt "incredible" the first couple of weeks (and bursting with
libido), but they don't feel quite as good now, but still much
better than before they started the TRT. This is because subjective
findings are the best while serum androgen levels are accelerating.
Adjunctive to this phenomenon is the fact their HPTA was not yet
being suppressed, so their endogenous production was higher then
than it would be by the end of the month. TRT patients are always
HPTA suppressed to greater or lesser degree.

Much weight is placed upon the patient's subjective findings, as
they are not likely to remain compliant in the TRT program unless
they feel noticeably better, irrespective of the less obvious long
term improvements in CV health, bone density, decreased risk of
dementia and cancer, etc. Certainly, if the patient reports they are
quite happy at a Total Testosterone level of 600ng/dL, I feel there
is little reason to increase their dosage. As an Osteopath, I am
loath to provide ANY medication, or increase in dosage, without
proven need. As a practical limit, the top of "normal" range for
Total Testosterone provides a ceiling, more or less, above which we
can expect to find the benefits of TRT beginning to reverse
themselves. Actions following androgen receptor binding dramatically
improve health and happiness as we go from the hypogonadal state to
the top of "normal" range, but beyond that the Lipid Profile and
level of insulin sensitivity, for instance, are damaged.
Changes in IM dosing are made in small increments, as response to
same is not linear. It is convenient and practical to increase, or
decrease IM dosing by 20mg at a time, as this is one "tick mark" on
the side of the syringe (for the 200mg/mL concentration). For
Androgel patients, we are more limited by their provided dosing
whereas we can only either drop down to 2.5gms, or add an extra pack
each day (at which time BID dosing may be considered) to reach the
7.5gm, or even 10gm, per day dose. More flexibility is provided
through compounded products for those committed to employment of
transdermal testosterone delivery systems.

Another risk of jumping the dosage too much is that, should serum
androgen levels greatly exceed the top of "normal" range, the
patient risks becoming "spoiled" at that level. They would then feel
the subjective benefits steroid athletes report, and it would be
difficult to get the patient then to be happy at a more moderate—and
proper—dose. It is likely you would also therefore produce elevated
estrogen activity as well, and further muddy the waters with respect
to how the patient feels—and looks (due to emotional changes and even water retention issues from the elevated estrogen). It is far better to make changes in dosing conservatively.

Once the method and dosing is set, by laboratory assay AND subjective report from the patient, then you may address any side effects due to elevated estrogen levels which have occurred. I do not use an AI initially, even when E2 is elevated, because some
patients will actually see a drop in estrogen over baseline on
follow-up. We would have otherwise added an unnecessary (and
relatively expensive) medication. Should the patient develop
any "nipple issues" secondary to accelerating serum androgen levels
and/or elevated estrogen, you cannot start them on a SERM right away
because doing so will invalidate your estradiol assay at follow-up.
Of note, males can experience said "nipple issues" even while
estrogen levels are within physiological range, due to changes in
hormone levels. A drug of the class SERM is treatment of choice in
this case, until symptoms subside.

Indolplex DIM along with 50mg of Zinc will lower E2 levels.

****

I think that most of this is from Dr J Chisler & Dr E Shippen.


« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 05:15:21 AM by Gine2D »

Offline hypo

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To the original poster (i'm not using that handle you have given yourself),

Gine2D is perfectly correct ( But Geez Gine2d comprehensive yes but also bogglingly difficult for the first timer).


Poster,

If you tell me where you live, I will get you contact details of endocrinologists who have an active interest in reproductive endocrinology that should be able to test your hormones and correctly evaluate your situation.

It maybe that you do need testosterone but that your dose is inadequate, it maybe that you need your estrogen levels reduced in order to reap the advantages of the testosterone therapy.

Please PM me with your zip code and let me help you here.

All you will have to do then is make a phone call and an appointment.

P.S

It does sound as though at the very least your treatment regime may be improved and benefits gained.

You have a problem with self esteem, and hormone problems can at least be partially responsible for such feelings.

Quote Frances J Hayes MD, and Nelly Pitteloud MD
Androgens play a number of important physiologic roles in the human and are required not only for virilization and normal sexual function but also for maintenance of both muscle and bone mass, as well as normal mood and cognition.
Unquote




« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 06:40:05 AM by hypo »

Offline endurer

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Hi people. Thanks. I am relieved to some level after seeing your messages.  The positive messages and enouragements, thanks indeed.

Mr. Gine2D, your post was big, but after reading it full, I find many interesting things there.

Actually, I am new to the US itself. I come from another country. But as I had said earlier, I started the testosterone two years back. The endo in my place had put me on some blodd tests and MRi scans and asked me to take it. What she has put in her referral letter (for me to continue the inj wherever I go) says 'idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism'. When I started T, i was slightly below normal range I think (something like 8.9 where normal is 9-25). I am not familiar with the units and I may be wrong in my memory even. After 6 months of biweekly inj, she tested and said the levels have not improved at all and she increased the dosage and decreased the frequency, like once in 3 weeks. 6 months later, she was gone and another doc was there. He tested and said still the levels were not improving and told me to go back to the biweekly shcedule. Now I am here in US...and when I went to my nearest GP to take the biweekly inj, I poured out to him that this problem is killing me. He has referred me to an endo nearby and I have the appointment in 2 weeks.
Actually I thought when it comes to the level of specialists, that too in too much sensitive areas like this, whoever the doctor, all have same levels of expertise, and differences may be very marginal. But now I feel there may be diferences between different doctors. And after seeing many posts here, I want to believe that more, though I am not sure.

Hypo, if you think I may find good use if I go to a proper endo, then please let me know the best person in my area. I am in MN-55369 (minnesota).

And Gine2d and all other helping souls, please mail-me/post-here the valuable info.

One thing I felt often regarding doctors and specialists is, though I am so much anxious and frsutrated and spend as much I can on these things, they spend only a few mins (MAX say 5 mins) to discuss/explain the problem with me. And I have to wait for another 6  months to meet them, just for that few mins again. Since these problems cannot be enquired/discussed easily with anyone just like that, I feel doctors could spend a little more time with the people. But then may be they dont because they know better. I am not sure, but just as a victim, I wish I had more time with them knowing what will happen.

One thing I want to share is, my estrogen levels in many tests I have had over the years, were like 15 to 20 in a normal range of 5-30...sorry I am not sure again...but I think the levels were always little higher than the average normal or may be a little more higher even. And always I had asked all the specialists I have seen that why they dont try to reduce the E. But they had refused to do so and said it was for my own good and it was normal to have like that. But I am not convinced. If anyone knows about this, please tell me

Offline endurer

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dear friends...i forgot to ask another thing. Is there any exercise thing for widening the narrow wasit, or shrinking the hips. I dont have much fat on the front, but between the sides and the back. It is actually not normally noticeable, but since I am a lean person, it shows. Also for the chest and any other things that will help people like me. I guess you think that I can very well go and find out in the internet...but most of the things there look like for normal people...like reducing stomach fat, or building arms, etc. Since you people seem to be more knowledgeable in this area, please tell me the good ones and I can start working on them. Actually I love to do work out, but I felt that these particular areas would never go...so I stop quite often.

And Gine2D, reg Klinefelters Mosaic Syndrome, yes I read a lot on such things recently and thats how I came into this site. Anyway, you think I may have a mosaic and not pure KS?


Offline hypo

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I couldn’t find anything via your zip code (perhaps it is incorrect?) So I searched by state (I presume MN is Minnesota?)

All the endocrinologists below have an interest in reproductive endocrinology, the area that specifically covers hypogonadism and also best covers gynecomastia.


Charles F. Abboud, MD
Mayo Clinic
200 1st St SW
Rochester, MN 55905-0001
Directions to Office
Phone: 507-284-2617
Interest Areas:
   Adrenal Disorders
   General Endocrinology and Metabolism
   Pituitary Disorders
   Reproductive Endocrinology
   Thyroid Dysfunction
   PCOS

Rose Crowley Christian, MD
200 1st St SW
Rochester, MN 55905-0002
Directions to OfficeInterest Areas:
   Reproductive Endocrinology
   Other

Neena Natt, MBBCh
200 1st St SW
200 First St. SW
Rochester, MN 55905-0002
Directions to Office
Phone: (507) 284-3289
Interest Areas:
   Pituitary Disorders
   Adrenal Disorders
   Reproductive Endocrinology

Puneet S. Arora, MBBS, MS, FACE
Endocrinology, Regions Hospital
640 Jackson St. MS 11503F
Saint Paul, MN 55101-2502
Directions to Office
Phone: 651-254-1746

Visit Dr. Arora at AACEHost
Interest Areas:
   Thyroid Dysfunction
   Diabetes Mellitus
   General Endocrinology and Metabolism
   Osteoporosis
   Parathyroid Disorders
   Reproductive Endocrinology
   Pituitary Disorders
   Disease of Pregnancy

Salwa Salama Ayad, MD
5950 Redbud Land NW
Rochester, MN 55901
Directions to Office
Phone: (507) 281-1327
Interest Areas:
   Osteoporosis
   Diabetes Mellitus
   Thyroid Dysfunction
   Adrenal Disorders
   Pituitary Disorders
   Reproductive Endocrinology
   Parathyroid Disorders
   Nutrition
   Lipid Disorders

Paul C. Carpenter, MD, FACE
Mayo Clinic
200 1st St SW
Rochester, MN 55905-0001
Directions to Office
Phone: (507) 284-0051
Interest Areas:
   Adrenal Disorders
   Ectopic Endocrine Syndromes
   General Endocrinology and Metabolism
   Hypertension
   Pituitary Disorders
   Reproductive Endocrinology
   PCOS

Farha Said Khan, MD, FACE
9055 Springbrook Dr NW
Coon Rapids, MN 55433-5841
Directions to Office
Phone: (763) 780-7057
Interest Areas:
   Adrenal Disorders
   Diabetes Mellitus
   Disease of Pregnancy
   Growth Disorders/Growth Hormone
   Lipid Disorders
   Metabolic Bone Disorders
   Parathyroid Disorders
   Pituitary Disorders
   Reproductive Endocrinology
   Thyroid Dysfunction
   Osteoporosis

John H. MacIndoe, MD
115 Harriet St N
Stillwater, MN 55082-4775
Directions to Office
Phone: (651) 275-0412
Interest Areas:
   Diabetes Mellitus
   General Endocrinology and Metabolism
   Lipid Disorders
   Metabolic Bone Disorders
   Parathyroid Disorders
   Pituitary Disorders
   Reproductive Endocrinology
   Osteoporosis
   Adrenal Disorders
   Thyroid Dysfunction
   Other
   PCOS

Todd B. Nippoldt, MD, FACE
Mayo Clinic
200 1st St SW
Rochester, MN 55905-0001
Directions to Office
Phone: (507) 284-2511
Interest Areas:
   Adrenal Disorders
   Ectopic Endocrine Syndromes
   General Endocrinology and Metabolism
   Pituitary Disorders
   Reproductive Endocrinology


Phone a few of them up and detail your circumstances, then simply make an appointment with the one you feel most comfortable with.  These endocrinologists express a specific interest in these issues.



Poster I too have hypogonadism, mine is thought to be hypogonadotropic as well (via chemotherapy).


Here is a forum that specifically relates to hypogonadism that may help you.

All you need to do is register.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/hypogonadism2/?yguid=212159740

Here is a website with valuable information on that relates to hypogonadism

http://www.androids.org.uk/

If you have been diagnosed as having hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, you do not have Klinefelters Syndrome (Klinefelters Syndrome is hypergonadotropic hypogonadism- HIGH gonadotropins LH and FSH due to testicular failure because of a chromosomal/genetic defect).

With hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, the original fault lies with the hypothalamus/pituitary and the LOW emission of gonadotropins LH and FSH.

There are various causes of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, it can occur before pre puberty or post puberty.

It can be caused by chromosomal/genetic abnormalities at birth like in Kallman Syndrome and other rarer conditions; it can also be caused by various pituitary disorders again both pre and post puberty.

When the cause is not found it is often labeled idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism or IHH.

If hypogonadotropic hypogonadism is of a post pubertal nature and the testicles still function correctly and simply do not produce enough testosterone as a result of low LH, then HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin) can often restore the bodies own endogenous (natural) production of testosterone.  For such people HCG is often a better form of therapy than testosterone.

As it stands if your TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) is not sufficient or your estradiol elevated or in fact your ratio of testosterone to estradiol poor you will tend to put on weight irrespective of your diet.

There is a proven link between low testosterone and obesity in men and elevated estradiol often causes weight gain.  

Furthermore men with the problem detailed above tend to have female distribution of weight, (put weight on the hips and chest and have increased visceral fat around the stomach.  Because testosterone is required for muscular development, men with low testosterone also struggle to be able to put on and sustain significant muscle mass.

Of course this all relates to being off treatment,  on insufficient treatment or inappropriate treatment.

Gynecomastia is an associated condition and 10% of all gynecomastia sufferers have hypogonadism.    


P.S

Feel free to ask any questions I am only too happy too help and I am sure that goes for Gine2D as well.  You can PM me if you want to ask anything in private, I would imagine you can do this with Gine2D as well?

Alternatively you can register with the forum I have given you and throw your questions open to a wider audience.

I hope that helps- a lot to take in
« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 04:51:17 PM by hypo »

Offline Spleen

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Gyne/health issues aside it simply sounds like you are self-conscious and concentrate more on the negative than the positive.  You can learn to be more confident and have a more positive outlook about yourself and your abilities.  It's work; there are no pills you can can take to become courageous.  I don't know what kinds of motivation you respond to, but if you make the effort to be stronger in the areas where you are, or at least feel, weak then you *will* be strong in thos areas.  Best of luck.

Offline Paa_Paw

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I'll call you winner because you have already had some very good and comprehensive responses from some of the most knowlegeable people here.  Their responses ar so good that they left little to say.

Your Gynecomastia is a symptom of your Hypogonadism and much less important than the underlying cause.

Get yourself to one of the well qualified Endocrinologists from those listed above.  Then  work on the self attitude.  Truly, it takes a real man to put up with conditions such as yours.

Keep us posted, and Good luck!

Grandpa Dan

Offline endurer

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I went to an endo today. He looked at my old MRI scans and said the pituitary thing is quite fine. He has ordered blood tests. Next appointment is after 6 weeks. Always doctor appointments are long. 6 weeks...I wish it had been earlier.

As usual, he tried to say I may have no problem. I said straight that there is a problem, though not big, not nothing either. And it affects my libido, physique, psyche, etc. Then he said my testes looks little small. Anyway, after the tests come out, he will clarify everything, he said.

He was quite good and considerate. Though I wish could have had more time to discuss with him. Why are doctors ALWAYS so busy? Or atleast when it comes to me.

I asked if I have Klinefelter's? He said no, since KS will not allow to have children, while I have one healthy 7 yr old son. I said could it be KS with mosaic...he did not answer that. Anyway, I dont know what awaits my hopes.

People...psychology...yes...its attitude that decides things...I have heard this and know this is quite true.....to 'some level' only. I practise some slef discipliines like yoga, etc, for long long time. I have been thru many psychologist counselling. And these have shaped me well. BUT, that is not all. The doctors never accept...or let us believe that. There is something definitely more...like in my case...the hypogonadism. I turn back, I see myself a fool for more than 20 years...right since start of my adolescence. I have made a good career, family, etc, etc...but how can I say there is nothing I missed. And, you cannot get those things again, not because of the age, but I still have the problems that was there for past 20 years.

I have lost interest in life. I am enduring, for my family, my parents. I have to be responsible for them, of course, and I am.

You may think why does this guy not just try to do something? Read books, try this, try that...Well I can do that and forget my worries, in fact achieve something good, or a lot of good things. BUT, i will return to the same problem state again. Its like fooling myself. Life is just like that for a machine. Just kill time, try to keep your career, look for improvements in career, family, etc.

Well, I will go on blabbering like this. But then you are going to feel quite bad and irritating. So I stop.

Offline endurer

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By the way, I am taking testosterone every two weeks for past 2 years. I started with a level of 8.7 (normal 10 - 34 for males). Now I have only 5.0, according to a test done in Jan. Is it possiible? Anyway, I have given for new tests today...with a new endo. I will know after 6 weeks.

Offline endurer

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Does treatment help to improve the testes size? Has it been succesful for anyone? I read a lot in the internet that TRT and lot of other things do improve a lot of things...like psyche, libido, etc, etc. But is it really true? I mean, practically, does it really happen? I am very doubtful, because I have not seen anyone saying so, from the patient point of view.

Offline endurer

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Does treatment help to improve the testes size? Has it been succesful for anyone? I read a lot in the internet that TRT and lot of other things do improve a lot of things...like psyche, libido, etc, etc. But is it really true? I mean, practically, does it really happen? I am very doubtful, because I have not seen anyone saying so, from the patient point of view.

And people who want to tell me that the thoughts and attitude is what decide your mood, libido, etc, etc. Now..now...c'mon people...I agree to that point...only to a certain level...you cannot make a women have the libido of a man (or the other way), just by changing attitude, thoughts, discipline, etc. In fact, I fell all these good disciplines become a big source of confusion and burden for people 'with' problems (any problem).

I have followed many such good disciplins, and had felt very well for long, in fact thought I overcame all my probs...but here I am...with all the worries back.

We cannot mask everything from ourselves, and fool ourselves....cos our heart knows what is true.

Well....this life is not for me. Sorry if my words are upsetting anyone.

My main point here is not to say that ethics, attitude is bad, or does not help wahtever....my point is, to know if anyone has had effective results after TRT, etc treatements?


 

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