New laws coming

[Evolver]

My 2c.

Polarization has been mentioned in this thread, and has in fact been displayed in it in a bitter fashion complete with puerile labelling of people and organizations. Just stop it.

In my humble opinion, those complaining (not necessarily here, but in general) about queer or 'different' people's human rights are fearful that just because concessions are granted to those groups, then somehow, they are missing out.

Nonsense.

It isn't pie.

If someone who never had a slice of it suddenly gets some, ordinary folk are not suddenly missing out.

We are all passengers on the same spaceship. There's room for all of us.

[gotgyne]

And why would anyone care if men wear bras because they have boobs? Be it from gynecomastia or just from being overweight and their weight just happened to go straight to their booobs.

In my opinion most of the people don't care.

I've worn sheer support pantyhose and medical compression pantyhose in nude, off-black and black for two and a half decades openly with shorts. Only on very rare occasions there was a reaction. And if, it came from girls who were giggling.
Only one time there was a group of drunken men who laughed. Well, I don't have any reason to stop drunken dumbheads from laughing.

The same will happen with men wearing bras, which are visible through a thin shirt or with visible straps. But if every man camouflages his bra it will never become normal. It is useless to lament that men must hide their bras. Instead we should do all we can to make it normal.

Amelia Bloomer invented what was later named 'Bloomers' and wore them in public. "However, the Bloomers were subjected to ceaseless ridicule in the press and harassment on the street" according to Wikipedia. But she didn't stop wearing them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Bloomer#Social_activism

[taxmapper]

It is unfortunate that this type of discussion is actually being made. 

At the core of this specific argument for the laws in place I still believe are people who fall into two specific camps.
 
These two camps are "on the same side" but with two radically different intents. 

The first are the true believers. Those who actually see this in the black and white frame and are unable to see and/or accept the variations biologically. Their ignorance is not based solely on not knowing, some do know but refuse to accept that it is happening.  The other part of the ignorant group are those who follow blindly.  Both make it to the legislative level to some degree and momentum is built through hook or crook that pushes this. 

The second branch of this are actually trolls. This sounds conspiratorial, but my connections within local government has allowed me to be around these people. They are insidious and evil. 

They are FULLY aware of the circumstances within the arguments and may actually be those who support various "rights" groups, including Pride, Trans, multi this or that or whatever. 
But are the foot solders of the activist movements and they are the moles, spies and 5th Columnists put into the other side that gives false and misleading information to steer the opposition into different directions. 

Don't doubt they exist, I have had first hand experience with several of these types of trolls. 

These are the people who set out the game of giving some lunatic idea that "x" is bad. Then they stand on podiums and scream that "x" is bad, build a movement and get the movement to execute something on the "x" is bad mantra. 

On the other side, you have someone of the SAME group screaming the exact opposite. 

This was a common tactic during the Spanish Civil War and was a favorite tactic of the Nazis prior tot he Blitz. 

What is happening now is that the majority of folks (particularly and unfortunately within the southern US) fall into the ignorance camp and are easily persuaded. When given situations like the FEMA think in North Carolina, its like gasoline on an anti government fire. Adding some level of "anti" trans, gay, diverse" agenda is simple at that point. But ironically, the anti-"x" movement isn't in many cases started by the folks there, because if your southern your typically taught to be respectful. 

That is not happening now. 


The argument now becomes low hanging fruit. 

[42CSurprise!]

One of the things we've been doing on this website is coming to terms with the fact we don't fit the stereotype of what a "man" should be.  For some the only response is to cut off our breasts so we fit that standard.  Needless to say this is only one dimension of being human and it seems that any difference becomes an occasion for righteous people to do unkind things.  The only question seems to be which differences offend you.  We get a bit of a picture in this conversation.  Sadly, that is what self-righteousness is all about.  The joke is when you point one finger at someone else you are pointing three fingers at yourself.  But very few people wish to look at their own landscape of righteousness.

This thread began by one of our companions who represents one of the differences that has become most polarizing in our culture.  This has nothing to do with breasts, though they are present, but everything to do with what gender means.  Those who spend time on the acceptance side of this website are grappling with this all the time.  Is is okay to wear women's jeans and addition to a brassiere?  Does that make us crossdressers?  Boy we don't want to be part of THAT club.  How can we remain manly while having breasts?  My guess is that few of us want to become champions in a political argument for the right of men to wear brassieres... and yet we talk about it here and discuss our preferred brassieres.  Birdie physically stands at the intersection of male and female anatomy.  When she was born parents and physicians were terrified of how to proceed.  They couldn't accept ambiguity and so made a decision... believing that solves the problem.  But as Birdie has shown us in so many ways, that their solution was not a solution at all... and he paid the price for it.

So where do we draw lines and what underpins our need for certainty?  Where does our self-righteousness take us?  You can count on the fact that every division will be driven through the body politic in this country because keeping people riled up can produce votes.  Birdie's situation is complicated and she is dealing with it in a very mature way.  Deep respect.  I'm not smart enough to know what is right for other people.  As a fellow I worked with often said "You'll never know until you're in the bullfighter's shoes."  I don't know how another person has come to the decision they made about their lives.  I certainly have no interest in hanging out with any self-righteous person who insists on anything.  That is a fool's errand.

[blad]

Just as there are many types of bras, there are many types who wear them.

There are liberal bras and conservative bras, they often don't mix well together unfortunately. 

[Traveler]

This! 👆

[42CSurprise!]

Just as there are many types of bras, there are many types who wear them.

There are liberal bras and conservative bras, they often don't mix well together unfortunately.

Actually... brassieres don't care what the political persuasion of their wearers may be.  All they care about is holding breasts and showing them to advantage.  And breasts on men have nothing to do with political preferences... they simply are.  It is up to all of us how we'll respond to that reality.  Personally, I'm not resisting and have no intention of doing anything but accepting this fact.  

[Evolver]

Liberal and conservative bras and their wearers, yes, I get the metaphor.

Reminds me of the old joke, based on religion rather than politics, which I present here to further defuse the situation.

A man walked into the Women's Department of Macy's in New York City. He
told the Sales lady, "I would like a Baptist bra for my wife, size 36B".
With a quizzical look, the saleslady asked, "What kind of bra?"

He repeated, "A Baptist bra. She said to tell you that she wanted a
Baptist bra and that you would know what she wanted."

"Ah, now I remember," Said the saleslady, "we don't get as many requests
for them as we used to. Mostly our customers lately want the Catholic
bra or the Salvation Army bra, or the Presbyterian type".

Confused and a little flustered, the man asked, "So what are the
differences?"
The lady responded, "Well, it's really quite simple.

The Catholic type supports the masses,

The Salvation Army lifts up the fallen,

The Presbyterian type keeps them staunch and upright."

He mused at that for a moment and then asked, "So, what is the Baptist
type for?"
"They", she replied, "make mountains out of molehills".


😆

[WPW717]

Now that made me laugh!

In the vein of this discussion I read an interesting article from the Brownstone Institute.

“An Accidentalist’s Guide to Denying the Obvious “ is the name of the article. I tried to put in the link but was unable to do that.  ( It’s not behind a pay wall) It is an interesting read of 8 minutes that clarifies the processes that are being used in society today. It tenets are directly applicable to politics today, Birdie’s situation, and a whole host of other issues and situations. 
Give it a whirl, guys. I think it will open a lot of eyes.

[Justagirl💃]

Regardless of political beliefs or entrenched ideologies, we are all here together and need to find neutral ground.

"Live and let live"

Perfect song for that:
https://youtu.be/-Py8OWAMkns?si=zOiyIghAE76l8zyE

[Traveler]

I can’t let this slide. There’s been some pretty harsh opinions expressed here. There can be no neutral ground when someone says some unsubstantiated, pretty out of line opinions. Facts matter, overlooking their failings while pointing fingers at others for perceived failings they heard from a partisan talking head that always starts with them saying“some people say,” isn’t a fact and rarely close to the truth. Each side has problems, but a 10% issue gives you no right to attack when you’ve got a 90% bucket load. We’re not here for politics, there’s plenty of other places to spew your political opinions.
The original post was about a personal issue, when you drag the other side in the mud because of your personal identification it says you felt attacked. It wasn’t about you, it was about someone needing compassion and you couldn’t keep your politics out of it.  The next four years will be interesting.

[Parity]

I've learned to let this talk slide in my every day life.  I have found as a rule people don't want to listen, learn, then engage.

Birdie, thanks for the song.  Sums it it perfectly!  And with joy! 

I have no intention to try and read others thoughts or intentions, what I can say is don't judge others.  You have no idea how they arrived at the position they are in.  For Pete's sake don't rule their thoughts and lives!  I just want to live loving those I see in the light that they present them self's as.  Period.

Thanks for the song Birdie.  Pretty much sums it up and ends this discourse.  

[Justagirl💃]

On a side note, I was shopping at Torrid yesterday when a client came in to purchase some clothes. He/she (not sure of their pronouns) had fairly large breasts that I would estimate at about a D cup.

They bought several items including lingerie.

The receding hairline and deep voice made their biological gender rather obvious, but staff treated the person with utmost respect.
No one batted an eye and attended to their shopping needs without hesitation.
Even more impressive was the fact that nothing was said amongst the staff after the client had left. They shopped at Torrid without being judged in the least. To me that was rather impressive being that we are in the Bible Belt of Texas.

There is a glimmer of hope in Texas, however I am sure it's not everywhere that person goes. Even in boy-mode years ago I caught hell over my chest and hips here in Texas, and that was in bib overalls and baggy shirts. 

[Evolver]

There are examples everywhere, I think, of a slowly growing acceptance of not caring about gender. Sport is a great example particularly in this country, where our national women's soccer team is more popular than the men's. My wife and I attended a packed stadium last week for one such match, and as usual, there was a broad mix of spectators - it wasn't just mums, daughters, groups of teen girls or lesbian couples. Screaming boys holding up posters were common too, as were men of all ages. Including in the raucous fanzone! Point is, if the product is good (which it is), and there is an appetite for it (regardless of the reason), it will sell and be considered normal, regardless of whether the product was designed to cater for one gender or not.

This correlates with an AMAB shopping for lingerie at Torrid. The customer's reason for doing so will ALWAYS be valid - physically or not! They will walk out of there feeling terrific. No-one SHOULD bat an eyelid. And no-one SHOULD gossip afterwards. The whole experience SHOULD be normal. In the case of your anecdote Birdie, it gladdens my heart to know that it was. Yes, there is hope.

Regarding new laws as per the thread title, I'd be more worried about laws currently protecting LGBTQI+ folk that might be revoked. 

[blad]

Maybe it's time to get back to talking about bras...

I find it more uplifting.