What causes women to have similar extreme reactions.

[Alchemist]

I have heard thousands of people's stories through the years both on the internet and in person, working for the members of group health plans via the trustees. Some of the things I looked for in the data were trends, especially unexpected trends, that could get unexpectedly expensive.

I found in males from teen onwards, a small percentage that have a reaction to even a small amount of breast growth a terror and horror of it that is off the charts. I know this terror from personal experience, and that was 55 years ago that it started.  My mother was a body hater, anorexia, and projected it onto me and ruined my metabolism and made me fat controlling my diet to make me properly skinny. She almost died of starvation. PTSD lingers from school age experiences of horrendous harassment and the desired solution by about 1/10 of 1% of new onset cases in numbers.  However, the number of such surgeries has been growing by 20% per year, doubling each 4 years for the past 10 years or so.  There is a terror of being seen as having these breasts.  People throw out much of their potential life and hide. Anything that requires taking off their shirts, often several bulky oversize layers, is forbidden.  Girls become off limit for fear they will see breasts.

The only thing I found that is comparable among women is also the recent rapidly increasing phobia of having labia any larger than absolutely tiny.  While there are a few women with large enough labia they get constantly irritated , in women's underwear at least, and it becomes a medical problem, and covered by insurance.  Mostly their problem is one rude guy who is an not a nice person makes a totally ignorant rude comment about her labia, or larger labia in general, or fear of such a person possibly existing.  It is some young kid with no knowledge or experience usually.  And again, the absolute size has nothing to do with it as many of the women wanting surgery so desperately are, as with gynecomastia, well below 50th percentile of size.  It has everything to do with fear of being seen and "what will people think".

Like the guys who can't face taking off his shirt with a girl, these girls are afraid (terrified is more accurate) of taking off their panties and being seen.  They feel they can't have a relationship with a guy because then he will "know".  Does all this sound familiar?  The numbers feeling so afflicted that they have a labiaplasty are similar to males desperate enough to attempt to
become "flat as a board" via surgery, a fraction of 1%, and it appears that the surgery numbers are growing approximately as fast as the guys, doubling every 3 or 4 years.

There is something cultural going on. Why are so many fearing and hating their bodies so strongly; males and females? 

[MammaryMan]

The only thing I found that is comparable among women is also the recent rapidly increasing phobia of having labia any larger than absolutely tiny.  "

I understand that Bruce Jenner is also concerned about this.

[ALAR]

This is a medical forum let's not be transphobic please. Her name is Caitlyn and you have no idea what she is concerned or not concerned about.

[Alchemist]

This is not a joke.  I'm talking about PTSD and body dysmorphic disorder and the trauma it causes having people withdrawing from social interaction because of fear of being revealed over a feared "abnormality" that is usually a completely normal variation and rarely a medical problem.  I grew up with gyne and junior high was hell, even worse than the usual hell of junior high.  This extreme reaction appears to come out of fear and body shame taught by society and at home.  The boys are devastated by a single remark from a girl who is seeing breasts on boys for the first time and often the girls get similarly crude and rude and ignorant remarks from guys who know nothing the first time they get undressed.  Sometimes it is merely self comparison to selected porno as some say and fear that since they are not the same there must be something wrong.

My partner became aware that her clitoral hood and inner labia were occasionally visible when she shaved for the first time.  I assured her it was completely normal and and looked good.  Now, 10 years later she hasn't thought about it in 10 years and still shaves, daily at the nudist club, because stubble doesn't look good.  When all you have is grooming, make it good.  If she got a tattoo she could have a great butterfly done.

So, understanding and getting a realistic view of what bodies actually are like might help relieve a lot of stress and trauma, or better yet prevent it.  Why do some, and I am included in that, have such extreme reactions with fears that can last a lifetime unless dealt with.

The response are very similar in both male and female in these fears of abnormal body.

 

[rrr]

I don't think a large labia is in the same category as severe gyne, as there is no way the labia could be seen clothed unless it was intentional, but that's just my $0.02.
As for the amount of irrational body image issues, I agree. The vast majority of people seeking cosmetic surgery do NOT have an issue that anybody would even notice, let alone care about. I don't know why there are so many people on a quest for a particular body part to be PERFECT, especially when the rest of the body isn't.
Why would anyone undergo the risks of surgery simply to achieve perfection for ONE body part? Puffy nipples, so what? Visible labia, so what? Small breasts, so what? Small penis, so what? As you said, people seem to be unable to accept the NORMAL range of things.
Please understand, I am not talking about guys with true gyne and B cup+ breasts and the like, because that is not any more normal than a woman growing a penis. 
I am also not talking about people with a near perfect body except for one part - I do understand that if a lot of work has gone into a person's body, surgically correcting a part, that cannot otherwise be changed, is a logical step.
B and my $0.02

[Alchemist]

Hi Bummed,
I am comparing similarity in the extremity of reaction; PTSD and/or body dysmorphic disorder.  For the reactive women with the subjectively abnormal labia it is the same fear of being seen by a potential sexual partner as many of the guys here have expressed about being seen by their girlfriend or wife or whoever.  It doesn't include being seen by the public at large but we are not talking something rationally considered. 
So where on the normal distribution curve of male breast size does the "normal" become abnormal; 10th percentile, 30th percentile, 50th  percentile (dead average), 90th percentile or 95th  percentile (2 standard deviations)?
Actually many of the ladies with substantially enlarged labia won't go to the beach or pool because their labia can be seen through the bathing suit as can a large penis, or breasts through a shirt.

Just as the degree of psychological discomfort with puffy nipples or even the thought that they might have some gyne that is so small and subtle if any that they have to ask if they have it, and are already upset about it and behaving as if they had some D, DD, E, F, G, H cup size breasts already attached clearly doesn't relate to size.
Visible labia doesn't bother you but visible breasts do.  The irrational fear, and up to PTSD and body Dysmorphic Disorder inspired by possibly visible breasts, even just nipples, even just plain nipples that are not even puffy, just not flat, or of  possibly visible labia, well under 50th percentile in size, is what we are talking about.  Breasts on men are not abnormal or as many as 50-70% wouldn't have them.  When somebody who has breasts that are just not flat as a board, 10th percentile in size perhaps, are cause for irrational fear and surgery, there is something wrong.  And similar things happen with labia.  The approximate counts of surgeries look similar 5 to 10 years ago for both, and increasing rapidly.  Due to lagging or no reporting it is hard to know surgical rates, but appears to afflict about the same percentage of young ladies.

What makes it similar is the similar huge and desperate reaction to a NORMAL variation of size.  Something that predictably happens to 50-70% of men isn't abnormal; either that or it is defining 30% who don't as the only normal men which is a very abnormal definition of "normal".  I have sat around a pool and have seen a sizable percentage, 30% or 40% of men have breasts up to some measurable cup size, but only 10% or so are flat as a board, whatever that flesh consists of.  The appearance of breasts can be muscle and fat with varying degrees of gland growth. In an autopsy study 70% of men had breast gland growth.  Most men grow up from being flat as a board boys and fill out in the chest.  However, not even all the flat as a board boys have nipples that never have piloerection.  Some have piloerection of nipples almost all the time.  Some get very upset about that as if they have sizable breasts.

[rrr]

 I have sat around a pool and have seen a sizable percentage, 30% or 40% of men have breasts up to some measurable cup size,

OK, out of that number, what % are not related to excess weight?
From what I have seen - and I have been looking - men with cup filling breasts with no associated weight issue - are well out of the "normal" range, which is typically the middle 80%. That leaves the bottom 10% as the flatter than normal and the top 10% as bigger than normal. By the time we get to B+ cup size, we are probably talking about 1%.
I don't get it either. Why have surgery for something in the 80% range? Why have surgery if you cannot fill the smallest cup size? Even looking at before and afters at surgery sites, it is only a small % that had any growth people would notice.
The quest for perfection in ONE body part baffles me.
I am unfortunately in the 1% now, and this after only 18 months, and I dread the thought of surgery even if I could afford it.
B

[Alchemist]

Hi Bummer,
With autopsy determined gland growth in 70% of the dead men they did autopsies on, subtract the 10 or 20% of flat as a board guys and that leaves 10-20% who MIGHT have fat based gyne without gland growth.
Surgery for gynecomastia is based on psychological causes, very rarely medical causes.  People in terror of growth so small nobody else can see it for instance, is an example.  As size goes up to where it seems to make sense to cut them off, results decrease.  I looked at results of cases like mine. I can't believe that the guys are satisfied.  I took one look at the many results and knew that surgery wouldn't be satisfactory for me even if I were a good risk and had the money to waste.

If you are around Denver this summer I could arrange a nudist club visit for you and a friend so you could see reality.  For the last month I have been wearing my new shirts which I would have dared wearing before this year.  I went to a single layer of a normal fitting shirt about 40 years ago.  In 4 weeks of new t-shirts I have seen 2 people with visible responses and one comment, one woman to another.  Other than that the other hundreds of people who have walked by me appear to have not noticed at all or not cared at all.
You worry too much.  Having these breasts just don't matter after high school is done.

[rrr]

With autopsy determined gland growth in 70% of the dead men they did autopsies on, subtract the 10 or 20% of flat as a board guys and that leaves 10-20% who MIGHT have fat based gyne without gland growth.

Alchemist,
Most fat guys with moobs ALSO have gland growth, because fat aromatases T into E. so your 70% figure is most likely the % of men that had gyne - TOTAL.
Given that 2/3 of Americans are overweight (awful close to that 70% number, eh?) and nearly half are obese, we are looking at the 33% that do not have a weight problem. How many of those have B+ cup sized boobs?
Methinks we are talking about a fraction of 1%. You make it sound common, but I have been looking at male chests for nearly a year now, and I have honestly not seen a normal weight male with B+ cup size boobs. Have I seen mild gyne? Yes I have. I have seen very mild gyne in younger guys and older guys, but it has been the type that the average person wouldn't notice - think in the normal range of men.
I would love to feel that I was not the 1 in 1000, 10,000, or whatever, but I'm not seeing it. While I don't workout, I cannot "pinch and inch", and don't even have love handles, so a B+ cup size is very noticeable.
As for surgery, I agree with you 100%. The only surgeries that turn out great are on the men that don't really need it. The extreme cases that really call for surgery end up looking pretty poor. I have no desire at this point to trade boobs for scars and different deformities.
B