supplement

[soccerplaya]

I'm going to start taking this supplement and it says it has the nutreints that are in broccoli, brussel sprouts, cabbage etc.

it says it will help to give you healthy breasts? do you think this could mean they might grow?

[soccerplaya]

its called like diindolymethane.   know anything abou tthat?

[Hypo-is-here]

diindolymethane is a nutrient, a metobolic product/substance that is derived from cuciferous vegetables such as broccoli and cauliflower.

These vegetables can lower the potent estrogen estradiol by metabolizing it into a less potent estrogens in the liver.

However the quantities that are required in order to do this are quite substantial.  For this reason various products containing diindolylmethane have been produced.

The idea behind them quite simply is that they allow for healthy metabolisation of estrogens in men and women.

Some men do find that DIM is quite helpful in relatively small quantities (where estradiol has been shown to be high!!!).  However DIM is not totally without issues.

Not only is it possible to lower estradiol too much and have adverse problems that relate to this fact (lowered libido, erection problems, thyroid function thrown out) but it also causes headaches for some men.

Lastly but very importantly DIM also lowers the potent male hormone dihydrotestosterone (DHT).  Now it does not lower DHT to anywhere near the extent of problematic substances such as finasteride and in fact I have never heard of anyone complain of any side effects of this nature, neverthless it must be an issue that causes concern.

DIM is something quite well known to the hypogonadal community in the US and is something that many such men use to control estradiol.  However these men have not only been shown to have high estradiol to start out with via pathology, but also these men often have high DHT to start with and therefore are unlikley to suffer as a result of any DHT lowering effects.

The bottom line is it may help some men manage an estradiol problem, particularly those who do not have low or low normal DHT levels.  But this is something that should only be used as indicated by pathology testing.

For those that are considering its use;

A) It is a nutrient and therefore can be used in the same manner any vitamin or mineral can.  B) DIM requires and adequate delivery system in order for it to be bioavailable to the body.  DIM with Indolplex is one version that allows for a good bioavailable level.  Only small quantities are required- usually a lot less than is stated by the companies that manufacture it.  C) It is always VERY helpful to have pathology testing at various intervals to ensure all is well.   It may be a nutrient but it can be a powerful one.

P.S

There are easier ways of lowering estradiol as part of a healthy program that may avoid some of the pitfalls of DIM.







 


 

[soccerplaya]

thanks hypo!

what are the easier ways?

[Hypo-is-here]

Well the problem that quite a few people have is that they have no real idea as to whether their estradiol level is actually high or not as they are unable for whatever reason to obtain hormone pathology.

Given the condition people assume that they have high estradiol.  Assumptions are the mother of all Ahem... shall we say errors

In a situation where you think estradiol may be high or at least perhaps elevated, it may be preferable to try to lower it in a more gentle manner and there are steps that can be taken in order to do this, also the steps outlined below do not lower dihydrotestosterone in any significant way which may be, well a potential concern with DIM.

Zinc 50mgs a day with copper trace or a couple of mgs of copper supplement.

If an individual severely lacks zinc during puberty, their pubertal development can actually be halted, upon commencement of zinc supplementation pubertal development can be re-initiated, such is the power of this mineral and the effect that it has on  hypothalamic/pituitary function.  

If this was just a one off, or a rare occurrence, then this would matter little.  However all the top US national health and nutritional studies have shown zinc deficiency to be a significant problem (NHANES I, II, and III performed over thirty years) for large segments of society.

Not only that but;

Zinc is actually coded in the androgen receptor; the androgen receptor actually has binding domains allocated for zinc!

Following on from this highly important fact, it is also known that zinc is a natural aromatase inhibitor, it is known to actually help lower estradiol levels albeit slightly.

Many men taking this zinc supplementation have subjectively reported increases in testicular size and an increased feeling of well-being.  

This is not particularly surprising, increases in hypothalamic/.pituitary function caused by varying factors such as the lowering of estradiol will increase GnRH and in turn LH and this in health individual will mildly increase leydig cell response, testicular size and testosterone output.  A slight improvement in the testosterone to estraogen ratio can lead to a greater sense of well-being.

Moving on;

B complex vitamins (to RDA levels)

All the B Vitamins are important in cellular functions.  The B vitamin most likely to be beneficial for pituitary function is Pyridoxine (Vitamin B6) because it has the ability to mildly decrease the secretion of prolactin.  In doing this it can help to mildly improve the level of free testosterone and the testosterone to estrogen ratio.  Folic acid and vitamin B12 also contained in such products also help clearance of homocysteine, a critical substance produced as part of the recycling of the bodies amino acids.


High dose Vitamin C (1 to 3 gams).  It may surprise people but, it has been found where people suffer from a sluggish pituitary (as opposed to outright pituitary insufficiency) that increases in Vitamin C can increase testosterone levels.

It has been known for many years that vitamin C is essential for the formation of the basic steroid hormones of the adrenal glands and gonads in both sexes.

Importantly low levels of Vitamin C have been shown to cause increases levels of aromatase.

Although the above is a very high dose, there are no studies indicating adverse effects at that level and animals that produce their own vitamin c manufacture at least their own bodyweight equivalent of that dose.


Vitamin K and Niacin (RDA levels)

Vitamin K and niacin both improve the cellular functions of the liver and in particular the important phase 1 p450 system.  This phase 1 system is the active liver function that is responsible for clearing excess estrogens from the body and cutting down their half life.  So Vitamin K and niacin help the liver eliminate excess estrogen build-up- again this is only a mild effect but an effect all the same.

Add Broccoli, cauliflower and shellfish to the diet.  These foods help to convert estradiol to a less potent estrogen, they allow for a healthy estrogen metabolisation, unlike DIM they are natural sources and used as part of a normal diet more easily dealt with by the body.  Again this effect on estrogen will only be mild, but these things can ad up.

Take exercise daily 30min walk.

Daily exercise of this nature was shown in a breast cancer study to be highly effective at lowering estradiol!  The importance is that of it being frequent and at not too stressful.

Following on from the above

Loose excess weight.

Excess weight is known to lower testosterone levels and increase estrogen and in particular estradiol.  Obviously the above daily exercise can contribute to weight loss as can a balanced diet.

The aromatase enzyme that converts testosterone to estradiol is found most abundantly in visceral fat in the buttocks and stomach.  A reduction in visceral fat literally reduces the amount of aromatase enzymes that are able to convert testosterone into estradiol.

Cut down on Alcohol intake if this is an issue.

Alcohol significantly inhibits the clearance of estrogens, whilst at the same time dramatically reducing testosterone production for upto 24hrs afterwards.  In long term heavy drinkers testicular failure is common, as is evidenced by Malcolm Carruthers M.D MRCPATH, MRCGP (world leading hormone specialist) findings where thirty percent of his first 1000 hypogonadal patients had a history of such drinking.

Hormonal pathology after a heavy drinking session often shows significant elevations in estradiol, in fact alcohol has even been known to double the level of estradiol after such events.

P.S

None of the above is any substitution for hormone pathology and general endocrine investigations, something that is vital important when investigating the aetiology of gynecomastia.  Neither is any of the above a treatment program for gynecomastia or a substitution for surgical or medicated intervention.

However the above is helpful general advice on how it may be possible to positively and naturally affect the endocrine balance and help lessen the possibility of greater gynecomastia development in those not suffering from significant conditions or diseased states.

I hope some people find it useful.

[kindherb42]

Hypo your posts are always useful.  Great post

[Paa_Paw]

After Hypo has checked in there is seldom anything left to say.