Hair

[42CSurprise!]

What you point to Sophie is the simple fact our notions about gender are mistaken.  We like to think in terms of male and female with each term carrying a set of assumptions about what it means to be either.  Reality is much more complex than that with gender actually being on a continuum.  Even relying on differences in genital development can be tricky.  I have an acquaintance whose child was born with confusing genitalia... intersexual.  They made the decision to surgically make that child a boy, something that likely wouldn't automatically happen today.  Now parents would likely allow the child to simply mature to the point where gender assignment makes sense.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=intersexuality&docid=608022809358187913&mid=8D0E1C7E0E201ED0E74D8D0E1C7E0E201ED0E74D&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

We know that men who have breasts are physically on the more feminine side of the continuum.  We may have male genitalia, but we have elevated estrogen and conversely reduced testosterone that not only results in breasts forming but the other changes you mention in terms of our bodies and our emotions.  Choosing to wear brassieres is a step toward self-acceptance and so we have conversations about such things on this board.  We support one another and appreciate both the need for a brassiere and the aesthetics of selecting and wearing a brassiere.  To men not dealing with this reality, our conversations must seem strange.  We're weirdos right?  Fetishists?  No, we're simply men on the more feminine side of the continuum learning how to live life with breasts and bodies with curves.  I'm not going to shave my beard but I will likely attend to hair on my breasts, simply because they look better in a brassiere without hair.  I want to look good in the brassieres I wear.  I'm rather happy with these breasts now... go figure!  

[aboywithgirls]

42C,

Thank you for your great insight.

You should be happy and proud of what you've been blessed with. I think that you look fabulous in your bra! I don't feel that it makes any difference  of gender. A nice rack is a nice rack! I hope that you don't mind that I noticed your tapered feminine waist and feminine hips. I think you have a pretty figure!

🥰💋❤️🤗
Sophie

[taxmapper]

The BBC video has some interesting points.

It got me to thinking of situations of my own right, but I doubt that I am intersexed. 

What has happened int he past was that I had and still do have a tendency to wonder why I am not female.

I do grow hair but its light and not particularly thick.   the hormones are def. raging and libido wise, though not a "active in the past" it is definitely there and more "intense".

Time will tell, if the health system starts to recover from all the politicizing.

[Evolver]

Wow, hasn't this thread gone on a tangent!

42C, I welcome your link to that video about gender assignment and involuntary surgical correction. It is worthwhile viewing, but I feel that it has opened a huge can of worms. Given that we probably all agree that it should be up to the assignee when they reach maturity as a critical thinking adult if affirming surgery should be undertaken, shouldn't this also apply to apply to other involuntary and unneccessary procedures on our genitalia such as circumcision?

Perhaps people are now thinking that I am drawing a long bow to compare the two procedures, but let's not apply double standards here. If a surgical procedure is not warranted on medical grounds, why should it be done at all? 

For the record, I am circumcised - not that I had a choice! There are obvious advantages and disadvantages. My wife and I made a conscientious decision not to put our newborn son through this unneccessary procedure 30 years ago, so we didn't. He hasn't complained, lol! By the way, the circumcision rate for newborn boys in Australia is currently less that 20%.

As usual, Sophie also makes a very good point. To paraphrase, she says that we should be happy and proud of what we've been blessed with. I agree totally! Every time anyone here puts up a pic of themselves, whether raw and droopy, or proudly encapsulated in a bra, or justifiably clad in shapewear, or perkily budding and asking questions, or hirsutely mooby - this is who we are. Let's accept it, embrace it, suppoprt each other, and move on!

[Confused old man]

Hormones are a very powerful thing. I never realized it until i started my hormonal imbalance 4 years ago. What it does to you physically and mentally is truly amazing. I tell my wife all the time now how I understand what she went through. I wish I would have understood more when she went through her change. I just thought she was going crazy...😂😂😂😂...things could be worse like cancer or something. So I’ll take the boobs😂😂

[42CSurprise!]

Wow, hasn't this thread gone on a tangent!

42C, I welcome your link to that video about gender assignment and involuntary surgical correction. It is worthwhile viewing, but I feel that it has opened a huge can of worms. Given that we probably all agree that it should be up to the assignee when they reach maturity as a critical thinking adult if affirming surgery should be undertaken, shouldn't this also apply to apply to other involuntary and unneccessary procedures on our genitalia such as circumcision?

Perhaps people are now thinking that I am drawing a long bow to compare the two procedures, but let's not apply double standards here. If a surgical procedure is not warranted on medical grounds, why should it be done at all?

For the record, I am circumcised - not that I had a choice! There are obvious advantages and disadvantages. My wife and I made a conscientious decision not to put our newborn son through this unneccessary procedure 30 years ago, so we didn't. He hasn't complained, lol! By the way, the circumcision rate for newborn boys in Australia is currently less that 20%.

As usual, Sophie also makes a very good point. To paraphrase, she says that we should be happy and proud of what we've been blessed with. I agree totally! Every time anyone here puts up a pic of themselves, whether raw and droopy, or proudly encapsulated in a bra, or justifiably clad in shapewear, or perkily budding and asking questions, or hirsutely mooby - this is who we are. Let's accept it, embrace it, suppoprt each other, and move on!

Actually, I don't think this is a tangent and the example you bring up fits right in, though circumcision is loaded with cultural and religious connotations that can't be simply dismissed.  I had a very dear friend who was conflicted about whether to circumcise his first son but since he is Jewish, he felt he needed to.  The bris is a formal religious ceremony that involves what is essentially a circumcision.

https://www.kveller.com/article/the-bris-ceremony/

I don't think we want to wade into that topic but the notion that we each have agency and each deserve the opportunity to make decisions about our own being is integral to finding acceptance of the differences in our bodies that we discuss here.  I brought up intersexuality simply because our consideration ties not only to gender but also to our sexuality.  Sophie is the only person among us, so far as I know, who has made the transition to presenting herself fully as a woman.  The rest of us consider ourselves to be men while we acknowledge that we have breasts "like a woman" as so many among us say.  My whole riff is that while we may genitally be men we are definitely on the feminine side of the gender continuum.  How we express that is very personal.  Many among us are with wives but even here there is likely a range of acceptance that doubtless affects how these men express themselves.  Men here who are not in a relationship will have greater freedom in how we express ourselves... as Dale did.  ALL of that is present on this board and in these discussions.  Acceptance in other words will be wide ranging if it is to be meaningful at all... much as you say regarding circumcision.  Occasionally, men are uncomfortable with what happens here and there has been some push back.  Fortunately, the men here presently are tolerant and kind to one another, which makes this otherwise challenging journey easier for those of us who truly want to find self-acceptance and self-expression.  If I didn't feel that way I wouldn't be here.  

[Busty]

I love that bra.  And you look great in it. 

[42CSurprise!]

I love that bra.  And you look great in it.

Thanks.  This was an early purchase, an inexpensive Chinese brassiere that is the right size and definitely shows off my breasts, but is designed with cups too narrow for male breasts.  This means the underwire support for the cups digs into the sides of my breasts.  That makes this brassiere very uncomfortable to wear for an extended period of time.  The brassiere I'm wearing at the moment, and, in fact, wear most days, has a band that is too short, but an extender solves that problem.  The silky unlined cups do a beautiful job both holding and displaying my breasts.

Lilyette Plunge Into Comfort

I don't know whether my breasts are growing but I do know they fill out the cotton turtleneck I often wear.  In fact, I'm a bit fixated on them.  It seems I've moved from concern to acceptance to celebration.  I guess as a single man living alone there is no problem here, right?  

[Evolver]

Actually, I don't think this is a tangent and the example you bring up fits right in, though circumcision is loaded with cultural and religious connotations that can't be simply dismissed. 

Thank you for pointing that out. The cultural and religious beliefs that some people hold is something that I didn't consider. Apologies to anyone who might have been offended by what I wrote. I was speaking purely on medical grounds.

[42CSurprise!]

Actually, I don't think this is a tangent and the example you bring up fits right in, though circumcision is loaded with cultural and religious connotations that can't be simply dismissed.

Thank you for pointing that out. The cultural and religious beliefs that some people hold is something that I didn't consider. Apologies to anyone who might have been offended by what I wrote. I was speaking purely on medical grounds.

No one assumed a negative intent with your comment.  Of course you were speaking about medical necessity since that was what the video about intersexuality focused on.  There is no doubt that when talking about gender and sexuality, there are a great many factors at play.  Attitudes towards transsexual youths demonstrate how challenging it can be to be different in any way.  We are fortunate to be among men who are open to talking about having breasts and how best to care for them... certainly an unusual conversation but one that is important to men who HAVE breasts.

[Johndoe1]

No one assumed a negative intent with your comment.  Of course you were speaking about medical necessity since that was what the video about intersexuality focused on.  There is no doubt that when talking about gender and sexuality, there are a great many factors at play.  Attitudes towards transsexual youths demonstrate how challenging it can be to be different in any way.  We are fortunate to be among men who are open to talking about having breasts and how best to care for them... certainly an unusual conversation but one that is important to men who HAVE breasts.

I have said, and I continue to say, rightly or wrongly, we are not the problem. Societies view is the problem. I certainly don't feel I am in the wrong body. I never have. There was a time I did question if I was, but ultimately, I have never felt or thought I was. I am also not a "manly" man per se. I never have been. If you take away the breasts and hips and lack of body hair, I look like any other man. Just not a very masculine man.

Due to the amount of estrogen my body has naturally produced throughout my life, it has effected my body and probably my mind where it has feminized me to a point. That's what estrogen does. I didn't ask for that. It's something nature did on it's own over time. I know my levels are not as high as a women's but they are much higher than men's, I suspect those of us with a higher estrogen ratio since puberty are more feminized than those who developed later in life because of the amount of time estrogen has had a chance to work on our bodies and minds. It is also understandable that those who have developed later in life may find it more difficult to adjust or admit to what is obvious and to understand how those of us who developed as teens have a seemingly easier time with it. Going through life with DD size breasts since my teen years has not been easy. And with age comes the same issues women have with their breasts. I didn't ask for that either but I am having to deal with it. That doesn't make me anything other than what I am.

If someone had asked me in my teen years did I want to have breasts, I would have said no. But I didn't get a choice in that decision. I have them now. So I deal with them. It just happens to be the way you deal with breasts is considered by society as a "feminine thing". Quite honestly, Sophie is right. Breasts are not a woman's thing, but a human thing. And just because I happen to be a man with breasts, I am denied comfort, support and containment of my breasts when it is expected of women to do just that because society says so. I am not trying to be something I am not. I am just trying to live my life in peace and comfort. And it just happens to be that some articles of clothing fit me better than others and they just happen to be in a section of a store deemed "off limit's" to my outward gender appearance and genitalia I got at birth. Again, something I didn't ask for.

Personally I am not trying to be or present as a woman. I would make an unbelievably ugly woman. I am not a handsome man either. I am stuck in the middle. I am just trying to do the best I can with what I have. And for that, society has a low opinion of me because I am different. Again, the problem isn't me, the problem is society.

[42CSurprise!]

You sum it up well John.  None of us asked for this and most of us have at some time struggled with it.  Kids can be incredibly cruel, so being different in any way can become occasion for teasing, which can easily lead to cruelty.  Shame often arises and it is easy to struggle with gender confusion.  Those of us who found support in our families likely did better with all of it.  But here too each of us has had different experiences.  I've alluded to the sexual abuse I experienced and how that made the entire exercise much more complex.  It certainly fed into gender confusion when the perpetrator threatened to tell everyone I was "a girl" if I told about what happened.  I was quite beautiful as a child with deep blue eyes and long eyelashes.  Needless to say that threat carried weight for me.  I was only seven at the time.  All of that put together has made my relationship to having breasts complicated.  Self-acceptance for me necessarily takes in both the body I've been given and the life experiences I've had as a result of those traumas.  And so I hang out with other men coming to terms with breasts and brassieres.  I think we're doing quite well.  And I agree wholeheartedly that the problem is with a society that is so hung that it can't tolerate differences.  Gender fluidity will likely not be accepted for our generation, but perhaps young people will create a kinder world for everyone who is different.

[Busty]

That top nicely shows your bust.