Sagging breasts

[gotgyne]

Some physicians believe that bra wearing may cause sagging breasts over time. But I think that especially the size of the breasts and the state of the connective tissue is the reason for this, and  - in women - breastfeeding. Often the breasts sag after breastfeeding, that's no mystery. Nevertheless I have problems with weak connective tissue (varicose veins, a repaired inguinal hernia, a sagging belly with only little overweight) and I notice that my breasts slowly start to sag. But that doesn't worry me at all. I'm getting older and cannot stop this process. In my opinion the more important is wearing a good supportive bra. What do you think?
John

[Johndoe1]

Whether you wear a bra or not, if your breasts are heavy enough, they will sag over time. Mine have been sagging for about 10 years. My appearance with and without a bra is remarkable in that respect. It's one of the things you deal with when you have breasts.

[gmast]

Nevertheless I have problems with weak connective tissue (varicose veins, a repaired inguinal hernia, a sagging belly with only little overweight) and I notice that my breasts slowly start to sag. But that doesn't worry me at all. I'm getting older and cannot stop this process. In my opinion the more important is wearing a good supportive bra. What do you think?

I think you have not done much research, or you would have read the literature that says men don't have cooper's ligaments like women do.  Contrary to popular assumptions, men's breasts are different from women's breasts.  Most of old coots with severe gynecomastia that I've seen, or seen pictures of, all seem to hang low, whether they wore a bra or not.  

[Busted (and happy)]

gmast
Your reply is a little condescending. John I am absolutely sure Has read the literature - he is a longtime contributer here

All breasts sag over time Coopers ligaments or no.
All breasts of any size, but especially if sagging will look better if properly supported, which is the point John was making.

Sagging is not only related to Coopers ligaments but also to the general muscle tone in the thorax. Just  stand in front of a mirror, move posture, raise arms flex and bend elbows and watch the breasts move.
Men may not have Coopers ligaments but in general do have better muscular tone unless they are inactive

[gotgyne]

gmast
Your reply is a little condescending. John I am absolutely sure Has read the literature - he is a longtime contributer here

All breasts sag over time Coopers ligaments or no.
All breasts of any size, but especially if sagging will look better if properly supported, which is the point John was making.

Sagging is not only related to Coopers ligaments but also to the general muscle tone in the thorax. Just  stand in front of a mirror, move posture, raise arms flex and bend elbows and watch the breasts move.
Men may not have Coopers ligaments but in general do have better muscular tone unless they are inactive

Thank you very much Busted for your answer on gmast's comment. I couldn't have said it better.
John

[Busted (and happy)]

No pics Leo, but I believe you.
In time they will to some degree.
Mine do not (Age76), but I do have very good thoracic muscle tone, as the Docs found out when trying to implant a cardiac monitor - took them a lot of time and effort and considerable bruising to me. Surgeon said "I normally just stick my fingers in and wiggle"
I have no doubt they will sag in time but maybe I will  be lucky as to degree

[gmast]

1) All breasts sag over time Coopers ligaments or no.

2) All breasts of any size, but especially if sagging will look better if properly supported, which is the point John was making.

3) Sagging is not only related to Coopers ligaments but also to the general muscle tone in the thorax. Just  stand in front of a mirror, move posture, raise arms flex and bend elbows and watch the breasts move.
Men may not have Coopers ligaments but in general do have better muscular tone unless they are inactive

1)  True, but misleading.  Coopers Ligaments play a significant role in reducing sagging, so without them, they will sag more, and sooner.

2).  Not true.  Some females may look better, but not all.  Men look more efeminate with a bra.  Whether that looks better depends on the viewers preferences.
3)  muscle tone doesn't do nuch, as there is not muscle in the breast, it is behind the breast.  Most of change is due to the skin tone and its resistence to stretching when arms are raised pulling the skin tight.
4)  As far as whether wearing bras prevents sagging, I've had women tell me they are convinced that wearing a bra 'breaks' them, as the bra reshapes them. There have also been studies that found the women that wore bras in the study had more sagging than the women in the study that didn't wear bras.  However, the study was not very large and did not have a diverse ethnicity.  Some people have postulated that a bra prevents the Coopers ligaments from being used, ie stretched and released, so they weaken.  However, most of these opinions seemed to be coming from women that didn't like to wear a bra, or guys that wanted women to go braless.  It seemed to me that their evidence was weak, and they were looking for a reasons to justify their opinion that wearing bras are bad.  I personally do not think it makes much difference one way or the other in regards to sagging. except for when excersizing.  I suspect that most of it is determined by genetics.

[leosud]

No pics Leo, but I believe you.
In time they will to some degree.
Mine do not (Age76), but I do have very good thoracic muscle tone, as the Docs found out when trying to implant a cardiac monitor - took them a lot of time and effort and considerable bruising to me. Surgeon said "I normally just stick my fingers in and wiggle"
I have no doubt they will sag in time but maybe I will  be lucky as to degree

Sorry
Post removed !

[Moobzie]

All of these posts are very interesting.
For me, I've noticed that sometimes they sag, and sometimes they don't.  The sagging usually occurs later in the day, and doesn't appear to be related to wearing a bra.  I usually wear a bra because it shapes and prevents visible sagging - which looks better than 'sag and bounce'.  My 'sag index' can be as much as two pencils! 

[Busted (and happy)]

Gmast
I wasn't even going to grace your somewhat muddled post with a reply.
I will however just say this. I speak with  some knowledge on the question of breast anatomy and physiology as I have , during my career overseen the commissioning of a breast screening unit and had ongoing administrative  responsibility for its supervision.

It is  true to say that am very widely read and have seen many scholarly papers  that the general public will probably never know about or have access to. 

The last part of your long longpost is all I can half agree with. When it comes to sagging, genetics do have a vast influence. Witness indigenous tribes around the world sagging breasts are often quite marked - are you going to attribute this to bras which they have probably never even heard of let alone worn?

ALL breasts WILL sag .... the only question is when and how much. Genetics (and the passing years)  and loss of muscle tone(which IS a factor} are relentless in All of us, male and female, however slow and however minor the degree.

I would also add that Coopers ligaments do not seem to help many, many women in this respect,  just casual observation should convince you of this. Again genetics + anno domini

You have a right to an opinion.

Last words. This all is not really relevant nor helpful to those coming to the site for help and advice. 

[gmast]

It is quite possible that I might well have forgotten more than you are likely to ever know.

Last words:
I will defend your right to an opinion.

Busted
You post this after previously posting that my reply is a little condescending?  Webster had a word for you.  He documented it in a book between the words hypocotyl and and hypocycloid.
 

[Johndoe1]

Ok guys!

[Busted (and happy)]

Thanks John.

I had already decided that I had come on a bit strong and had resolved to amend it before an apology was needed but you got in first, maybe we are in very different time zones.
Posts have been edited and one removed without withdrawing actual content.

Gmast: I am sorry!

All I was trying to establish was that even by just by looking around, much of what is believed about and much of what is written about Coopers ligaments can actually be seen to be self evident myth.

I do not go off the deep end very often. But  even Dr's can 'believe' this or that without any real scholarly evidence. We can all believe anything. It does not make it true. Any "truth" is only ever provisional pending further evidence.

In true scientific spirit I am very happy to admit that what I accept today from real evidence may be total heresy tomorrow
How about you?
Pax

[gotgyne]

High Busted,
thank you for your answer. To be honest, I found gmast's answer offending. I've read several books on anatomy and about half a dozen books especially on the female breast. And I think too, that the cooper's ligaments do not play the leading part amongst the reasons for breast ptosis. Then gmast uses the term "old coots" in his answer: "Most of old coots with severe gynecomastia that I've seen, or seen pictures of, all seem to hang low, whether they wore a bra or not." I'm German, so I didn't know the idiom "old coot". In a dictionary I read "A slang term referring to a middle-aged or old person. Could be insulting depending on intent." So I surely would not call gmast's comment a polite answer.
The same with his answer to you "Webster had a word for you. He documented it in a book between the words hypocotyl and and hypocycloid". I would never call you a hypocrite, what gmast obviously meant.
To me it seems that gmast on other occasions also 'overstretches' the rules of netiquette, as in this example: "Really?  Some folks are idiots." (in this thread: https://forum.gynecomastia.org/index.php?topic=36289.0 

There is no flawless person and every man or woman can have a bad day. But I try to be as polite as possible in my comments. If I made a mistake, which is the easier since I'm not a native speaker, I have the guts to apologize.
Busted, to cut a long story short, I think you did nothing wrong.
Have a nice weekend!
John

[gotgyne]

All of these posts are very interesting.
For me, I've noticed that sometimes they sag, and sometimes they don't.  The sagging usually occurs later in the day, and doesn't appear to be related to wearing a bra.  I usually wear a bra because it shapes and prevents visible sagging - which looks better than 'sag and bounce'.  My 'sag index' can be as much as two pencils!

Hi Moobzie, as I notice from your pic of your bare breasts, you're right with "two pencils". I like the term "sag index". I also think, that a good bra creates a much better look than braless sagging. And, as much important, as you already mentioned, it stops bouncing.
Have a nice weekend!
John