Re: Weird Occurance!!!

[Optimistic]

AbNormal:"It's just like when you're sick.. you need to rest for awhile to get back to full health.  You can't go full bore and work your butt of while your sick, or you'll stay sick.  Same kind of deal"

Good one! but hypo is saying even though you are "sick" you won't feel like working out. Someone who is so intense into working out may ignore this just to get "satisfaction" of the pump. Face the adverse effects later that's the mentality. Also referring to sex , when I was 17 -18 I did it so much it got to the point it wasn't even enjoyable it was just to see the womans reaction. So you don't have to be 100% totally excited to just do it.  But this goes against hypo's theory that if you have low testosterone you won't want to please the woman. In doing so you may let out some if not all of your sperm.
This goes beyond just masturbating it's depleting the sperm at a faster rate than a particular person may produce.

But back to the masturbating thing =) Um I don't know about you guys but in my early age "NOTHING CAME OUT" and yes I was still in the mood. So even though it wasn't being produced I was still horny as hell. This was very young though so you can't tell me if you aren't producing sperm you aren't in the mood. I know for a fact that is false.

Pre withdraw usually occurs without knowing. Over time who knows if the sport sex may have added to this.

See hypo the correct rebuttal to this is with built up unspent tesosterone you may or may not be burning the intertwind loose fat inside of the gland or around it. I could have dealt with that comeback but studies that were never done on this isn't sufficient.


In relation to the gland shrinking theory:
You know what you read in books, I know what I experienced first hand in real life through my own studies.

This seperates our discussion.

I don't wish to argue with anyone but I do want to find an equal medium of understanding why it appears to be shrinking in some people more than others.

GOD BLESS!

[AbNormal]

I don't wish to argue with anyone but I do want to find an equal medium of understanding why it appears to be shrinking in some people more than others.

GOD BLESS!

I think that perhaps it has something to do with just the actual "vitality" of the gonads.. i.e. their ability to do all of the jobs which they need to do, together, all at once.

When a person masturbates very frequently, it depletes the testes' ability to do all of those jobs together at the same time.  And so there are naturally effects on the systems which rely on those jobs being done.

Something I read in the past is that an amount of zinc is expelled every time you ejaculate.  I'm sure there are many other vitamins and such which the gonads need which are reduced from masturbation as well.  If a person is deficient in a vitamin or other substance which the gonads require, and they're masturbating a lot which reduces the amount of that substance in the body, it could easily depress the gonads' ability to function properly.

I think that's what happened in my case, from initially drinking a whole  lot of alcohol over a 6-9 month period.  Now the testes need babying of sorts to get back to full health.

A perfectly reasonable and sane explanation, I think.  And I think this, in some people's cases, explains why reducing the frequency of masturbation can greatly improve their situations.

Look up websites that talk about ways to increase tesosterone production.  This is what I've been focusing on, and I feel it has been helping.

Some of the factors:  Diet plays a very large role.  Also there are something like 4-5 vitamins which the gonads need ot functoin properly.  Zinc is the main one. But don't overdo zinc, it can have toxic levels if you take too much.  Also, if you take zinc, there's other vitamins you should take too, as it depletes some other vitamins. But it is extremly important for gonad health.

I could go on, but I need to head out and get some things done today.  But this is where my thinking comes from on this, and I'm 100% sure that it makes sense, even if it may  not really the central field of those doctors who are central to gynecomastia research.

Sometimes the answers must be found in out of the way places.

[hypo]

Masturbation does not cause hypogonadism period!

Sperm has no effect on libido or testosterone production period/well being.

Optimistic,

Answer the questions

Or is it that you cannot because your theory is in tatters?

[AbNormal]

Hypo if you'd read my reply you would see that I said that my hypogonadism was caused by excessive drinking of alcohol.

There's no point in arguing.  You are set in your ideas which you have developed from your studying, and some of us are open to the idea that this area has not been studied fully, and are open to people's findings that changing their behaviors has caused positive effect for them.

That is all that is happening here.  But people can take from this discussion what they will, and perhaps benefit from it.  It's apparent that it will likely continue to be an argument.  But that doesn't mean that both sides are not right in some ways, and probably wrong in some other ways.  But there's good stuff in the middle and around the sides as well to be found among this.

[hypo]

Abnormal,

Heavy drinking can cause hypogonadism and in turn gynecomastia, masturbation cannot.

In our previous correspondence, you said you suspected hypogonadism and I had no problem with that, as I said excess alcohol can cause hypogonadism, "can" being the operative word.

But stating you have hypogonadism prior to diagnosis is a bridge too far.

Before you can say you have hypogonadism, you must be diagnosed.  You cannot simply just state you have hypogonadism, as though from a position of authority before being diagnosed.

Like having cancer or diabetes, you can only state you have the condition following a diagnosis.

If the idea goes that you agree with optimistics theory and are saying you have hypogonadism, therefore I am wrong, I am simply saying you cannot make that assertion without a diagnosis.  

quote
some of us are open to the idea that this area has not been studied fully
unquote

This is part of the problem.  Because neither of you understand the endocrinology, you do not understand what is relevant and what is not.  

I have studied the endocrinology of hypogonadism and gynecomastia and all you can do is mock my understanding.

I have already stated that there is over 100 years of symptomatic evidence from across the globe that is diametrically opposed to optimistics theory.

This why it has not been studied, because all the symptoms in patients have indicated this cannot be so.

Just as there are no studies into many things that have no association such as, diabetes being caused by masturbation etc

But neither of you are listening to a word I am saying.

And neither of you is capable of answering the questions that my posts have raised.

Please answer the questions in my previous post.

quote
You are set in your ideas which you have developed from your studying
unquote

I am unmovable in my position on this subject if that is what you mean.  But that neither makes me wrong or dogmatic, which I think is your implication.

I mean I am unmovable on many factual statements, such as;

Obesity can cause diabetes.  

Masturbation cannot cause diabetes.

And I am neither wrong nor dogmatic because I am unmovable on these statements either.

Many issues are not simply black and white, but some are.  You have picked one that is and you are saying that black is white, that night is day.

It is not and I am not wrong or dogmatic for saying so.

But please if you contend what I have to say, answer the questions raised in my previous post in a detailed and reasoned manner.

[AbNormal]

One Question:  What do you think is the reason for these many people who cut back on their masturbation, and find after a few weeks that their gyne has reduced, when they've changed nothing else, and they've had the same amount of gyne for years?

Answer that question in a way that makes sense, and we may be inclined to agree with you.

But can you not see why we think that having a study regarding excessive masturbation would be a good idea?

That is all that we're trying to say here.

[fizzy]

Well - it's weird someone mentioned it. I've had the freakin operation and don't want it to ever come back. But, there was a period about 3 yrs back when I didnt really have time for sex or spanking the monkey. I was immersed in college work and I did think that to an extent my gyne had decreased. I would excericise a lot too - run 6 miles a day - becoz I didnt even know this is was tissue and not fat - and wanted the damn disease to go away. Of course, it didn't.  Perhaps it is a combo of puberty and jerking off in joy that causes gyne. In the end, it's speculative at best - but it's possible since both the sides who have had the debate on this topic haven't provided any solid data to back it up. I might mention it to my surgeon when I go for my next and hopefully last check-up.  He has an opinion abt everything - last time I went he was epousing the virtues of an arranged marriage!

[hypo]

quote
One Question:  What do you think is the reason for these many people who cut back on their masturbation, and find after a few weeks that their gyne has reduced, when they've changed nothing else, and they've had the same amount of gyne for years?

Answer that question in a way that makes sense, and we may be inclined to agree with you.
unquote

Show me serious numbers of people who have made this association- as in hundreds of people, not just a couple of people and rule out all other possible factors that may cause their gynecomastia.

If you cannot, it could quite easily be a merely circumstantial connection, as I believe it to be.

There are so many factors affecting gynecomastia that I very much doubt whether any individual can say that it is the only thing they have changed, as you have stated.  

If they change their alcohol intake that my be a factor, if they change their diet that may be a factor, if they have increased or decreased their body weight that may be a factor, if they are in puberty or reaching the end of puberty that may be a factor, changes in medication of various types may be a factor etc etc etc.

You have to establish connection/associations.  I am not being unfair; I am using the same criteria that is used by the medical profession.  

In presenting my position I am presenting the facts as proven in studies.

It has been proven is that hypogonadism lowers libido and that sperm production has nothing to do with lowering testosterone or hypogonadism.

As I have said, if you were progressively becoming hypogonadal via masturbation either via a lowering of testosterone or an increasing in estrogen, you would progressively become uninterested in masturbation.  You would not engage in excessive masturbation or excessive amounts of sex (biochemically the two are exactly the same), quite the reverse is true for men who are hypogonadal..

Now you may not think my answer is satisfactory, I am sure from your perspective it is not.   However I have been so good as to answer your question.  So can you please now answer the questions that I set out more than three posts ago in a detailed and reasoned manner?

Again so you do not have to go back and find them I’ll paste them in a mail yet again.


here you are;

If someone was masturbating often and the biochemical reaction occured that you are talking about (testosterone deficiency and elevated estrogen), they would start to take less and less interested in masturbating and sex in general...it would never become acute.  
 
So if you can accept that someone who has a depletion of testosterone over time, would not wish to be involved in acute sexual activity, such as masturbation. And if you can accept that someone who has a build-up estrogen over time, would not wish to be involved in acute sexual activity, such as masturbation. And if you can accept that sperm depletion does not affect testosterone production-  
 
Then you have just negated the entire theory!  
 
Or do you not accept these facts?  
 
Do you not accept the mountainous volume of symptomatic evidence collated from across the world over the last one hundred years, that indicates the complete opposite of your "theory" ?  
 
Can you please answer the questions?

If you do not accept the above, can you please give a detailed and reasoned explanation as to why?

Furthermore;

Can you produce a single article, (just one article, I’m not asking for much) from any endocrinologist (hormone expert), from anywhere in the world you concurs with this theory?

Can you produce a single, (just one article, I’m not asking for much) from any endocrinologist where masturbation is given amongst the causes of hypogonadism or gynecomastia to support this theory, either one will do, i don't mind which?


In the absence, of any evidence whatsoever (I no for a fact you will not produce any) backing up your theory.  Will you explain, if you haven’t already in a detailed manner why ALL the symptomatic evidence, which I have provided, shows the complete opposite of this theory?

If you cannot do that, will you accept that the theory is complete bunkum?    

[ma_5]

hi ,
  ive just seen this thread.......as someone who has just read most of the posts in one go ...you do realize that this subject is compleately fu##in insane.
what next....'will combing my hair into a center parting affect my gyne' etc.....

[hypo]

One last thing to add to the above that has only just occured.

In medicine it is for sombody proposing a theory to prove it, to prove that what they are saying exists.

I should say that the onus is actually on YOU to prove your theory, not on me to disprove it.

It just doesn't work that way.

Even though I have pretty much proven that the theory is rubbish

But please read the above post, do not just answer this one as though it is some get out of jail free card.

[AbNormal]

Actually we're talking about gynecomastia here, not hypogonadism.

And there are many causes of gyne, so having a high libido is still possible among the many causes.  Also, testosterone deficiency does not ALWAYS cause low libido.

Have there been any studies? No.

If there were, could there be a connection?  Maybe.

This argument is going nowhere, we both would need the study to know the truth.  You are automatically discounting that a study is necessary because of some premonition you have that it is not a connection.  How would you know?

At the same time, some of us have been open to a connection.

There is a state which a person gets into if they study a whole lot in one subject, where they are so deep in the current theories, that they do not have the clarity of vision to see the possibilities that are out there.

You are discounting this without knowing really truly whether or not it could be true.  So you say that the burden of proof is on me.  But who made you the one who can discount the idea that it may be possible because of that?

The only thing that can discount this idea is a study.  And there hasn't been one.

So we might as well stop arguing, and consider that neither of us can know for sure without a study.  You are not the all-knowing arbiter of what is true.  You're just a guy, just like all of us.

How can you say that you know that this isn't true?  You are abandoning the very process which decides whether something is true, based on somewhat related but not directly related past studies.

This is the last time I'm going to post on this.  But that doesn't mean that you're right.  It only means that this discussion has met a dead end, with neither side really winning in any sense.

The only way that we could know is if there were a study done.  And there hasn't been one.  So lets all STFU already.

[hypo]

quote
Actually we're talking about gynecomastia here, not hypogonadism.
unquote

Hypogonadism is precisely what we are talking about because the "theory" that you are supporting is that masturbating can reduce testosterone or elevate estrogen and cause testosterone deficiency and testosterone deficiency is called- hypogonadism.

That abstaining from masturbation resolves the situation and with it shrinks glandular gynecomastia.

The other part of the theory is that sperm depletion effects gynecomastia.  Given that sperm has no part to play in the androgen to estrogen endocrine balance. It factually and emphatically does not have any effect on gynecomastia!!! We can discount this immediately.

So hypogonadism is at the heart of this preposterous "theory".

Masturbation has no effect one way or the other on gynecomastia period!

Do you seriously think I am letting you off the hook here?

If you are capable of answering the questions, if you have the ability to answer the question, you will do so.  

If you do not answer the questions it is because you cannot answer them

If this is the case, I shall leave you to muse over your absurd theory.

But I offer you the opportunity one last time.

Please answer the questions in a detailed and reasoned manner, provide the support for your theory as I have requested.

quote
So you say that the burden of proof is on me
unquote

Yes the burden of proof is on you.  It is for you to prove your theory, not for me to disprove it....even if in fact that is what I have done.

Come now answer the questions and also provide your proof

P.S

I wait with baited breath.  For your next posting in the knowledge that you will almost certainly not answer the questions and will almost certainly provide no proof whatsoever- if this happens yet again, I shall leave you alone.

[AbNormal]

You're not listening.  There's no point in going on with this.  You are assuming my position and putting words into my mouth.

I've gotten into discussions with people who do this in the past and they inevitably turn into arguments which are not worth the "paper they're written on".

That's all I have left to say.

It turns into an argument over semantics, and goes off into "I'm right, you're wrong" land.  Then there is no point to it.

No doubt you will reply saying how right you are.  Good for you, give yourself a pat on the back.  You ARE right, in your own world.  I guess that's all we can ask for.

I'm out.

[a_teenager]

Hi i am a teenager (14) i have gynecomastia and my nipples stick out is this adnormal plz help me and can i grow out of this plz help me

My email address is gmsparkle@yahoo.com

[hypo]

Vaio,

You have said a lot in very few lines.

quote
I can't even read my own post because you won't shut up in it
unquote

In starting a thread, it is inherent that people will make posts, some of which you will not necessarily agree with. That is the nature of message boards.  You need to learn that, Just because you start any given discussion, it does not mean you have ownership of it.

quote
I have a huge headache from seeing all the crap that u typed
unquote

If you believe in this "theory", then I say to you what I have said to others, answer the questions that my posts raise and provide proof for the said "theory".

If you can do that, then you can refer to my postings as crap, as you succinctly put it.  

Until you do the above, you have no right whatsoever to refer to my posts as "crap".

Unless of course you are not challenging what I am saying but simply and ignorantly mocking me- ergo what I am saying.

So which one is is then?

quote
For future reference try to put your large paragraphs into smaller ones
unquote

Freedom of speach dictates that I may write whatever I wish to say anyway I please.  So I trust you will understand when I choose to totally dismiss what you have to say here and not censor myself